TOPIC: About Power Creep . . .

hmmm. maybe more than one subject is under discussion here. I for one don't care at all about how others do in the dungeon, but for the game to continue to be entertaining for all, challenging to the max so that you are not sure if you will survive, but still reasonably survivable, you have to make sure the balance is maintained. If it gets too easy, some part of the thrill is gone. If it gets too hard, you expect to die, then despair sets in. I can tell you in our two runs this year, the standard difficulty puzzle run was challenging but we used only a little bit of healing and all survived until time ran out wth Iuz. I don't think any of us felt like we would automatically survive and neither did we expect to die, but we knew we could die. We got treasure pulls in pretty much every room. In the nightmare combat run, more than one of us was close to dying in at least half of the rooms, the healing was flowing as fast as we could dispense it, and we got only a few treasure pulls. Still, we kept everyone, even three new players, alive until time ran out with Iuz. We had plenty of tokens for everyone, and the challenge there was non-stop. It seems like it depends on how much of a challenge you want. Then you can prepare accordingly. It is the challenge to the designer and the DM to keep the game balance as close to optimal as you can, so that everyone feels that challenge and a bit of a thrill as much as can be made possible.

Dis,<br />    That sounds like a great reason for a recommended maximum level of equipment but not a manditory one.  Something like a statement "The normal level of difficulty is designed for groups with one or less purple tokens per person.   If you have better equipement than that, you may find the dungeon too easy."   I tried to do something like this when I was coaching but most of the groups I coached had very little equipment so they were all correct for normal.<br /><br />Let people choose how they want play.  Some folks want to be challenged.   Some folks want to be entertained.   (My oldest boy HATED nightmare, even though we had reasonable equipment.)   <br /><br />If people want to go into normal level overgeared, then we should warn them and let them go.   <br /><br />If people want to do a run with too little gear (say with just a dagger), they should be able to do it.  <br /><br />====================================================================<br /><br />I really think limiting gear by player level would make a lot of people VERY unhappy.   And it would make even more work for the coaches to check player's level and gear.   Most coachs were pressed for time as it was getting the party organized.  I had a couple of parties that were late into the training room because I didn't get the party card ready in time.   Having to find out player level and check it against the gear would take several extra minutes that are not currently available.  <br /><br />

I agree.

Having a recommended equipment level would not only help over-equipped players understand that the dungeon would be too easy, but help new players know what kind of equipment they need.  It's a great idea!

The only problem I see is establishing the recommendation fully...today the coaches say things like:<br /><br />"Would you like to play Nightmare or Normal?"<br /><br />PARTY - WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE?<br /><br />"Nightmare is a much more difficult adventure, usually meaning you take more damage from mistakes you make on puzzles and the monsters you fight are using better stats."  "Normal is less difficult than Nightmare."<br /><br />That is usually enough to get a party to decide.<br /><br />Putting things into a TOKEN-PERSPECTIVE I think is asking for trouble.  Saying a group should have X number of REDS or PURPS takes too many things for granted...are they using RED armor and PURP weapons, or PURP armor and RED weapons...there is some difference.<br /><br />ALSO I see issues explaining a Recommended Equipment Level (REL) criteria system, this would take much more Coaching time VS just saying Nightmare does more damage VS Normal.<br /><br />This REL thing sounds really neat in theory, and maybe this IS something we want written down on the tables - or just published on the TD website...but asking the Coaches to explain this and removing the things I think would be taken for granted - would take time - or if not done - would cause customer expectations to be less firm than where I think we get them today.<br /><br />G

<br />This REL thing sounds really neat in theory, and maybe this IS something we want written down on the tables - or just published on the TD website...but asking the Coaches to explain this and removing the things I think would be taken for granted - would take time - or if not done - would cause customer expectations to be less firm than where I think we get them today.<br />

<br /><br />Oh, this would be on a handout that the party can look at, not something the coaches would explain.  Of course, you will get questions then.  So maybe publishing it on a website would be better - or publishing it at the token sales desk at GenCon would be the best. 

I'm not sure this is something TD wants to endorse at all - this is my point...<br /><br />If we players make a recommendation to other players - then any issues or problems don't go back on TD.<br /><br />Coaches could also say that the REL is one system of figuring out which difficulty to pick open to all players.<br /><br />Thoughts?

I agree that the REL might be hard to implement. From a time perspective, I don't see how it could be fitted in. This year, I had all the tokens for our entire party in one binder, with a page for each Character Class, and yet in each of the runs we barely got the info on the party card before it was time to go. Each time I had to distribute weapons in the training room because there wasn't time in the coaching room. <br /><br />REL also opens TD up to complaints. It could be seen as TD recommending a party do Nightmare - if that party then gets slaughtered, they may complain or ask for a refund. <br /><br />It also doesn't take into account that some groups are more risk takers than others. <br /><br />Mike

Exactly - good points!<br /><br />TD must set expectations with FACTS...saying that Nightmare does more damage for mistakes and that the monsters have buffed stats is a FACT.  Customer was given facts, and complaints are minimal.<br /><br />Putting things like the REL out there with too many variables is going to open the complaint door wide open.<br /><br />But this does not mean the REL can't be player sponsored or suggested.  I can see this existing very nicely as a link from the TD home page - like the Price Guide etc.

But you have people complaining now - the dungeon was too easy, the dungeon was too hard.  If you are trying to limit complaints, than wouldn't a Recommended Equipment Level be helpful? 

<br />But you have people complaining now - the dungeon was too easy, the dungeon was too hard.  If you are trying to limit complaints, than wouldn't a Recommended Equipment Level be helpful?  <br />

<br /><br />It might, but it would be a monumental headache and pain the ass to try and implement, not only because of the of a hassle of the coaches having to check everyone's tokens (and everyone having to pull tokens out of pockets and such!) but also of determining just exactly what equipment determines your difficulty level.  Also having level determined by equipment just isn't fair.  After all, if people want to "purp out" and be well nigh invulnerable on a Normal run then that is their right.  Some people enjoy that.  Some don't.  Some people will seek to challenge themselves, such as choosing a dagger only for their equipment.<br /><br />I think that at the moment True Dungeon is on the right track with letting people choose either Normal or Nightmare mode.  Another option for True Dungeon is to brinng back Hardcore and maybe add a few more tiers above Nightmare and again let the people  decide.  If people had the change to go on an Armageddon run where the Mind Flayer would have had 125 hit points you can bet that some people would have opted for that run.  <br /><br />No matter the solution it would be almost completely unfeasible for True Dungeon to try and match an appropriate level based on the gear being used.

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<br />But you have people complaining now - the dungeon was too easy, the dungeon was too hard.  If you are trying to limit complaints, than wouldn't a Recommended Equipment Level be helpful?  <br />

<br />I think that at the moment True Dungeon is on the right track with letting people choose either Normal or Nightmare mode.  Another option for True Dungeon is to brinng back Hardcore and maybe add a few more tiers above Nightmare and again let the people  decide.  If people had the change to go on an Armageddon run where the Mind Flayer would have had 125 hit points you can bet that some people would have opted for that run.  <br />

<br /><br />I thought we were talking about recommendations - not requirements.  Maybe I misunderstood.