TOPIC: About Power Creep . . .

<br />There is no doubt that you make sense and these issues would be ignored only at the designer's peril. Don't you think the current standard mode (as opposed to nightmare) covers that though?<br />

<br /><br />I believe that's exactly what he thinks, and is what he was trying to say. His response was to my suggestion that "normal mode" should be upped to the equivalent of "hardcore" from years past (unless I'm mistaken).

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<br />There is no doubt that you make sense and these issues would be ignored only at the designer's peril. Don't you think the current standard mode (as opposed to nightmare) covers that though?<br />

<br /><br />I believe that's exactly what he thinks, and is what he was trying to say. His response was to my suggestion that "normal mode" should be upped to the equivalent of "hardcore" from years past (unless I'm mistaken).<br />

<br /><br />precisely!

It makes sense to me.

I want to point out that good dungeon design can, and has, limited the effects of power creep in TD. On the combat side this year there were 5 combats. Only two combats operated 'normally', the battle against the giant and the battle against Iuz. <br /><br />Against the stirges, players could actually be penalized for using too powerful a weapon. The best weapon was your fist- no weapon token at all! <br /><br />Against the mind flayer, all but one player was limited to ranged attacks only. All of sudden, our cleric is putting down her +2 Gearon's Mace and worrying that she may or may not have a sling available. It didn't matter if our paladin had gauntlets and the girdle improving his attack with a +2 holy sword- they were rendered useless. <br /><br />Against the outsider/angel, the most important point of the combat was whether or not you attacked the monk. Not attacking the monk with your most powerful weapons actually rewarded you. <br /><br />Even last year, against medusa, all the fire power in the world didn't help much if you didn't have a steel mirror. <br /><br />Sure, groups with tons of healing and other tokens will have an easier time. But it won't matter too much as long as the dungeon is always designed with one or two encounters that tests the people and not the tokens that they have.

<br />Sure, groups with tons of healing and other tokens will have an easier time. But it won't matter too much as long as the dungeon is always designed with one or two encounters that tests the people and not the tokens that they have. <br />

<br /><br />Jeff is amazing at this.  He often includes a puzzle that even when you know the solution, it still takes skill to solve it.  When the commando run came through the key room, one of the DMs for the key room was with them.  And it still took him about 5 minutes to get the key.  Of course, he let his companions struggle for the first 6 minutes of the room.  Pretty brilliantly designed.

<br />I want to point out that good dungeon design can, and has, limited the effects of power creep in TD. On the combat side this year there were 5 combats. Only two combats operated 'normally', the battle against the giant and the battle against Iuz. <br /><br />Against the stirges, players could actually be penalized for using too powerful a weapon. The best weapon was your fist- no weapon token at all! <br /><br />Against the mind flayer, all but one player was limited to ranged attacks only. All of sudden, our cleric is putting down her +2 Gearon's Mace and worrying that she may or may not have a sling available. It didn't matter if our paladin had gauntlets and the girdle improving his attack with a +2 holy sword- they were rendered useless. <br /><br />Against the outsider/angel, the most important point of the combat was whether or not you attacked the monk. Not attacking the monk with your most powerful weapons actually rewarded you. <br /><br />Even last year, against medusa, all the fire power in the world didn't help much if you didn't have a steel mirror. <br /><br />Sure, groups with tons of healing and other tokens will have an easier time. But it won't matter too much as long as the dungeon is always designed with one or two encounters that tests the people and not the tokens that they have. <br />

<br /><br />Good points.  That's why I am expecting to see a rust monster in the future!<br />

<br />Good points.  That's why I am expecting to see a rust monster in the future!<br />

<br /><br />Which will make the bards repair spell key.

<br />Good points.  That's why I am expecting to see a rust monster in the future!<br /><br />

<br /><br />And I'm expecting more situations where ranged weapons will be the only usable weapon for some of the group or some of the encounter.

These are good points. Having the dungeon cleverly designed can neutralize the advantages of multiple powerful tokens in many but not all cases. The ability of the players to think beyond raw combat to innovative solutions is a giant part of it for me (although who doesn't like killing monsters sometimes?). The better D+D games were set up the same way.

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<br />I want to point out that good dungeon design can, and has, limited the effects of power creep in TD. On the combat side this year there were 5 combats. Only two combats operated 'normally', the battle against the giant and the battle against Iuz. <br /><br />Against the stirges, players could actually be penalized for using too powerful a weapon. The best weapon was your fist- no weapon token at all! <br /><br />Against the mind flayer, all but one player was limited to ranged attacks only. All of sudden, our cleric is putting down her +2 Gearon's Mace and worrying that she may or may not have a sling available. It didn't matter if our paladin had gauntlets and the girdle improving his attack with a +2 holy sword- they were rendered useless. <br /><br />Against the outsider/angel, the most important point of the combat was whether or not you attacked the monk. Not attacking the monk with your most powerful weapons actually rewarded you. <br /><br />Even last year, against medusa, all the fire power in the world didn't help much if you didn't have a steel mirror. <br /><br />Sure, groups with tons of healing and other tokens will have an easier time. But it won't matter too much as long as the dungeon is always designed with one or two encounters that tests the people and not the tokens that they have. <br />

<br /><br />Good points.  That's why I am expecting to see a rust monster in the future!<br /><br />

<br /><br />Make me glad I play a wizard although I really like the idea to remove some of the "power" for the rest of the dungeon.

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<br />Sure, groups with tons of healing and other tokens will have an easier time. But it won't matter too much as long as the dungeon is always designed with one or two encounters that tests the people and not the tokens that they have. <br />

<br /><br />Jeff is amazing at this.  He often includes a puzzle that even when you know the solution, it still takes skill to solve it.  When the commando run came through the key room, one of the DMs for the key room was with them.  And it still took him about 5 minutes to get the key.  Of course, he let his companions struggle for the first 6 minutes of the room.  <br />

  That's a lie!  He went forward with his solution while some of us went for a differenct solution.  Both would have worked in the end, but ours was slightly faster.  He did not just let us struggle for any length of time.  He was too much of a team player to do that!  Team Commando was just that, a TEAM!!!!  =D

Just to keep a thread alive, I thought I'd add my $0.02 as an intermediate player.<br /><br />I think the greatest form of power creep is the scarcity of runs.  Token collectors, from what I've heard, often get 3 or more runs in, distributed over the difficulty levels and the different sides. You also get that many more treasure draws, multiply that times a horn of plenty then perhaps more runs at TD:DC.  Now, there's a good argument that people who pay more should get to play more. Going at the different difficulty levels is almost required for the great XP competition because you get XP for normal/nightmare, and you want to make sure you get all the ingredient tokens.<br /><br />But it would be interesting to figure out what % of runs are which levels. I had to sit on a long waiting list to get a second run in.<br /><br />Here's my modest proposal: give less XP to higher level characters for the normal runs.<br />Treat the dungeon runs like encounters.  I bet TD will still sell out, but it might allow more beginner and intermediate players access to the scarcest resource of all: opportunities to play.