TOPIC: New 2009 Purple tokens (speculation)

I agree 100%<br /><br />

<br />I know that the only reason I bought the large order I did was to pick a particular purple token.  If it was left to complete chance, I would not have done so.  There are a lot of people who, particularly in today's economy, have limited funds.  Putting the purples in a random distribution would essentially block those who can't drop thousands on tokens from accessing the key ones they lack.  If the price tag is too daunting, people become discouraged.  If it stays within reach, people extend to reach it.<br /><br />I disagree with the comment about long term buying.  The trick to keeping people buying the larger orders each year would be more centered on keeping new purple tokens compelling than keeping the distribution random.  You'll have some completists that will continue to get every new purple, but if left random - they may simply not have the funds to do so and may lose interest.  Even completists have their limits.  <br /><br />Another example of how the PYP will build.  My purchase of the large group impressed friends of mine that end up buying a few extra bags each year but have never taken the plunge on the large purchase.  By helping pick the best purples for my party, they are more likely to buy a larger group next year.  PYP can be VERY infectious.  Don't fix what isn't broken.<br />

I said it last year and I'll say it again vorpal broadsword...

<br />I agree 100%<br /><br />

<br />I know that the only reason I bought the large order I did was to pick a particular purple token.  If it was left to complete chance, I would not have done so.  There are a lot of people who, particularly in today's economy, have limited funds.  Putting the purples in a random distribution would essentially block those who can't drop thousands on tokens from accessing the key ones they lack.  If the price tag is too daunting, people become discouraged.  If it stays within reach, people extend to reach it.<br /><br />I disagree with the comment about long term buying.  The trick to keeping people buying the larger orders each year would be more centered on keeping new purple tokens compelling than keeping the distribution random.  You'll have some completists that will continue to get every new purple, but if left random - they may simply not have the funds to do so and may lose interest.  Even completists have their limits.  <br /><br />Another example of how the PYP will build.  My purchase of the large group impressed friends of mine that end up buying a few extra bags each year but have never taken the plunge on the large purchase.  By helping pick the best purples for my party, they are more likely to buy a larger group next year.  PYP can be VERY infectious.  Don't fix what isn't broken.<br />

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<br /><br /><br /><br />I also agree. But I'm gonna take it a step further and explain why.<br /><br />I started playing True Dungeon in 2006 (first at GenCon Indy and then followed by GenCon SoCal). At the time I didn't bother buying any additional treasure packs (it wasn't cost effective for me at $10 a pop). In fact, it was more efficient to just go on additional runs (which include a free pack). In between Indy and SoCal, I also picked up a bunch of useful reds on eBay (+1 weapons, Full Plate, etc.)<br /><br />In 2007 and 2008, I spent $500 each year on tokens, and it was only because of the PYP program. Without PYP I wouldn't have ordered any tokens (not even with a Random Purp). Instead, I would have relied on trading and dungeon runs to get what I needed.<br /><br />In both of the most recent years, the main reason I spent $500 was for the Purps. I already had the core set of Reds I needed. So it's not like I really *needed* any more Commons/Uncommons/Rares (though some of it helps for Combo tokens). Next year, if they still do PYP, I'll spend another $500. If they don't do PYP, then it's not worth it for me to buy tokens. I can spend extra time trading. Or if there are select tokens I need I can buy them off of eBay.<br /><br />Let's look at someone going from 2007 to 2008, who decided not to buy any new tokens. For the Commons, he could use the 50 ft Twine and Vial of Ink and maybe the Silver Blessing Ring, Bell, and Charms for combos. For the Uncommons, the Gold Blessing Rod (if going for the Medallion), the Bracers of Deflection are okay (though I'd prefer Bracers of Defense any day), a couple of Salves of Stoneskin might be helpful, and more potions/scrolls are nice (but nothing new for someone who already has a decent collection). Looking at the 2008 Reds I see three "must-haves": Belt of Retrieval, Ioun Stone Faceted Amber, and Tower Shield (though you may be able to pass this up if not playing those classes). The new gold is nice and shiny but not necessary. They probably already have plenty of + weapons. A collector might want Boots of the Leopard, Cloak of Curses, Holy Symbol of Pelor, Ring of Sanctuary, and Robe of the Mage, but you can easily do without - they never made a difference in any of my runs (though the Robe is nice for the Wizard). So if I hadn't bought tokens in 2008, I would have traded for the commons/uncommons I needed and then maybe bought the handful of reds that I really wanted.<br /><br />As a result, I question Henwy's assertion that these current buys kill longterm buying. That might be true if people were primarily buying to get lots of tokens, and the Purps were just an added bonus. Without PYP I wouldn't be buying at all. And based on what other people are saying, I think a lot of people are actually buying for the Purps, and it is all the extra tokens which is just the whipped cream on the top.<br /><br />Some additional thoughts:<br /><br /><br />- During GenCon, I recall George saying that the devaluing of Purps might be a good thing, since it lowers the incentive for people to steal tokens.<br /><br />- Although Purps are more plentiful then in years past, there is instead a new class of "chase" tokens. The Bracers of Defense +2 from last year, and now the (technically Burgundy-coloured) Skull of Doom and Rod of Seven Parts are now as sought after as normal Purps once were.<br /><br />- Other people have noted that collectors with deep pockets like PYP because it guarantees that they can get a full set of Purps. They may not buy as much if they only get Random Purps.<br /><br />- Finally, if they do revert to Random Purps (instead of PYP), they I highly suggest that they eliminate Consumables (Hourglass, Elixers, Gem of Healing, Special ?), Gold (Sapphire Necklace), and chafe like the Scepter of the Dead. Otherwise you'll have many people who feel like they got screwed over because they got a "crappy" Purp (though it's always a relative concept).<br /><br />

I have to agree. After discovering TD in 2007, and deciding to outfit our party in 2008 with a large lot of tokens and quite a bit of trading, what encourages us to buy a large lot of tokens again in 2009 will be PYP. If you aren't a token collector trying to get as many as you can, you will still want to improve yourself and your group with new tokens. It's also worthwhile to note that maxing your AC is not everything, and there are plenty of situations where the highest AC can die quickly and the player that succeeds in killing the monster had the best idea or the best secondary item (maybe not even a purp) that was a good fit for that monster or predicament. As long as Jeff and company keep the design loose enough that everything does not depend on hits in combat (some things should but not everything) then it will still be a manageable task to continue to develop new tokens and new challenges that are best served by a wide variety of combat and non combat tokens.

<br />It's also worthwhile to note that maxing your AC is not everything, and there are plenty of situations where the highest AC can die quickly and the player that succeeds in killing the monster had the best idea or the best secondary item (maybe not even a purp) that was a good fit for that monster or predicament.  <br />

  Or the people without armor and carrying only daggers will be the ones to survive....  :tongue5:

I bumped into a lot of people at the event this year who simply stopped buying because they no longer need to. They were those who might have a purp or two, but mostly reds, and were already way more powerful than any normal dungeon was ever going to get. Again, when you can get to AC 25 with no purps at all, what the heck's the point of purps? I have no doubt that crazy forumites and completionists and those who want to Nightmare will go on. I also have no doubt that those groups are hugely overrepresented on this forums. I just didn't see any indication the average player out there was still buying like they used to. There's very little incentive to do so, and the overabundance of easy purps only speeds the issue. Letting people cherrypick means that they don't need to fish as often to get what they want. Once they get what they want....well, why would they keep fishing/

<br />I bumped into a lot of people at the event this year who simply stopped buying because they no longer need to. They were those who might have a purp or two, but mostly reds, and were already way more powerful than any normal dungeon was ever going to get. Again, when you can get to AC 25 with no purps at all, what the heck's the point of purps? I have no doubt that crazy forumites and completionists and those who want to Nightmare will go on. I also have no doubt that those groups are hugely overrepresented on this forums. I just didn't see any indication the average player out there was still buying like they used to. There's very little incentive to do so, and the overabundance of easy purps only speeds the issue. Letting people cherrypick means that they don't need to fish as often to get what they want. Once they get what they want....well, why would they keep fishing/<br />

<br /><br /><br />Well, I think that's mainly due to the Power Creep issue, which is separate. As you said, those people who stopped buying have one or two Purps max, but you're worried because their Reds are so strong. I agree that Power Creep is BAD, but you shouldn't complicate things by tying it so closely with the separate topic of PYP.

PyP IS power creep. If you get something random, you have no clue if it'll help your build. Being able to select is the fastest way to instill power creep because it gets people excatly what they need to maximize their character.

That part is true, but is the mission to keep people weaker longer or to encourage them to buy more tokens. I do not believe there is necessarily a 100% correlation there. As long as the challenges are varied and not just combat optimized, and new tokens enter the pool to address the multivariate situations, the buying should stay healthy. As I see it, the real challenge for TD is to keep the dungeon challenges fresh and varied. It probably also needs to keep adding new players. If the dungeons continue to challenge in a variety of ways, and new people engage the game, the tokens will keep pace.

<br />PyP IS power creep. If you get something random, you have no clue if it'll help your build. Being able to select is the fastest way to instill power creep because it gets people excatly what they need to maximize their character.<br />

<br /><br /><br />Eh, I'd say the bigger problem of Power Creep is when Reds and Purps become increasingly powerful from year to year. Being able to select isn't that big of a problem if the pool of Reds and Purps are on par power-wise with previous Reds and Purps. But when they are better, then you see things like the rapidly climbing AC level.<br />

That is true - and I think that goal can be achieved - it simply challenges the imagination to keep broadening the pool of tokens with new ideas rather than taking the easy way out by adding AC to armors and higher damage to weapons.

I know I would spend significantly less if the PYP program was ended.<br />