TOPIC: Factory Sealed

One thing that I would like to see in upcoming token batches are weapons that are:<br />

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• Easier to hit with but do less damage
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• Harder to hit with but do more damage
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<br /><br />I'm not sure how the tokens could be labeled to denote that (I guess given the "+" only effects the to-hit a token could be +2 but have a low damage wheel, or have no plus (or even a minus) to hit but a high damage wheel).<br /><br />In the abstract at least, new tokens like that shouldn't effect balance.

Longbow +2 to Damage (as indicated by the damage wheel)<br />-2 to hit (as indicated on the token)<br /><br /><br />something like that, Mike?<br /><br /><br />

<br />I must admit the recycling of tokens does sound like a neat idea. Especially for consumables. The only problem I see with it is that  people will get bored with the recycled tokens because they already have them or don't want them. They will complain that nothing new and exciting comes out each year. So it becomes a trade-off on how to figure out what new things to come out with and yet keep the recycled tokens in play. I would have to say Henwy if you are worried about power creep wait until next year. You won't really be able to tell until then if your fears are correct or not. I would say you have stated your concerns admirably and have opened up some interesting solutions to the problem of power creep. Now it is up to Jeff and co. to work towards next years crop.<br /><br />Lady Myke  <br />

<br /><br />It's a forumla that magic the gathering has exploited to a lot of success. You add new items, of course, but you constantly mix and fold in the old ones too. Once you hit a critical mass of items, you simply have to come up with a few new hooks each year and that's it.

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<br />I must admit the recycling of tokens does sound like a neat idea. Especially for consumables. The only problem I see with it is that  people will get bored with the recycled tokens because they already have them or don't want them. They will complain that nothing new and exciting comes out each year. So it becomes a trade-off on how to figure out what new things to come out with and yet keep the recycled tokens in play. I would have to say Henwy if you are worried about power creep wait until next year. You won't really be able to tell until then if your fears are correct or not. I would say you have stated your concerns admirably and have opened up some interesting solutions to the problem of power creep. Now it is up to Jeff and co. to work towards next years crop.<br /><br />Lady Myke  <br />

<br /><br />It's a forumla that magic the gathering has exploited to a lot of success. You add new items, of course, but you constantly mix and fold in the old ones too. Once you hit a critical mass of items, you simply have to come up with a few new hooks each year and that's it.<br />

<br /><br />Well, that's not exactly what Magic does.  They don't just fold in the old tokens and recycle them.  There are are a few tokens like that of course, but what they do more than that is add a new twist to tokens.  For instance, there are probably 10 variations on Wrath of God.  So, all new Treasure Tokens could be done, and also existing ones could be tweaked.  A great example is what was mentioned earlier - a Longsword that has +1 to hit and +3 Damage or a +3 to hit and +1 Damage, or even +1 to hit, +1 damage, and +1 AC could be done as an Ultra-Rare.  It is roughly equivalent to the existing Longsword, but different enough to be collectible.  You could do enough variations on tokens to keep things fresh for quite awhile.  <br /><br />I think it's far too soon to rely on rotating old tokens back into the set, as there are far too few tokens that have been rotated out and they haven't been out long enough.  It would be great eventually to rotate some tokens back in that have been out for awhile, but that could probably be done more extensively in a few years.  Plus, it would be good to have some tokens be permanently removed - it increases collectibility if each year there are some unique tokens that could only be collected in that given year.  <br /><br />I think there are plenty of brand-new tokens that can be brought in as well, I don't think we're all drained of new ideas.  I'll bet there could easily be a bunch more rings, for example, that could be made which are different but equivalent to the existing ones.  Especially if the dungeons were made to use them.  For example, a Ring of Acid Resistance would be cool if in that year there was an acid trap.  You'd have to avoid introducing items that are only good in that year though, or people would get annoyed that they are getting tokens that only are useful one year and never again.  <br /><br />Douglas, can you elaborate on your comment that power creep won't be a factor in upcoming sets?  Or is that just based on Dave saying that?  <br /><br />Mike

I see new slots as the best answer...nothing says RENEWED interest like IOUN Stones!<br /><br />I do grant that Rings and Boots and cloaks are staple items - and need to be expanded...but I think the opposite for new slots...<br /><br />New slots can revise items that existed in the past...so retire the +1 Ring of protection and create the +1 earrings of protection.  New players will be happy they have a +1 AC item, and maybe a shot at trading for the retired +1 ring...and VET players will be happy they have a new +1 AC item AND a retired piece to show they have been around.  <br /><br />If that is power creep - then it may be time to start a stacking rule that encorporates the whole Natural AC bonus VS deflective bonus VS DEX bonus ETC.  (not too up on how all that works in table top D&D)<br /><br />So anyway I stand with the suggestion to keep on keeping on with new slot items, while at the same time keep on making new staple items that do new things...<br /><br />As for a good number of turn over...I'd be happy with high numbers every year, but that is selfish as I am a big buyer each year...even 50-75% would be good, and might actually even make the medium buyers feel like they have some nice (retired) items which hold good value going forward.<br /><br />G

Just an idea that I was kicking around to help combat power creep.  <br /><br />Instead of just making monsters harder and harder so token lite parties have a difficult time ithere could be a restriction on how many tiokens a player can wear in a normal run so that all partier are on similar footing.  Obviously this number would be high enough so that you arent completely restricted but low enough that you dont walk through with no effort.

It all comes down to whether the game supports tokens or tokens support the game. It's starting to get a bit too close to the former for my comfort quite frankly and from the suggestions, it only seems to be increasing in that direction. A limitation to what you could bring into the dungeon would certainly make a difference, though it would probably just seek to concentrate power. If you could only wear, say, 5 tokens no matter what slots, then small differences between items become magnified.<br /><br />Really, IMO, there's nothing worse than the opening of new slots as far as creep. While bringing in 3rd edition bonus type rules would help mitigate problems, the rules are cumbersome and a pain in the ass to retro-fit. You would have to 'type' every bonus in the game and it just makes the whole thing like chartmaster.

Did you say cumbersome?<br /><br />What if they added an encumbrance rule?  (Even if it was just for hardcore)

I think they are trying to avoid limiting the number of tokens someone can bring in.  I like the current approach of "if you've got them, use them".  I think the better approach is to not print any tokens that are going to throw the game out of balance.  They don't want to get into arguments with players before an adventure, having to explain why they can't use some of their tokens.  <br /><br />I think there are lots of possibilities for new tokens, and I think everyone will be very happy with the next token set, as long as it doesn't have too much power creep in it. 

<br />Did you say cumbersome?<br /><br />What if they added an encumbrance rule?   (Even if it was just for hardcore)<br />

<br />I think the new weight of the tokens adds an encumbrance factor all of its own.<br />The weight difference between 100 chip tokens and 100 wood tokens is significant! That alone will start limiting how many tokens people take into the dungeon without TD having to set any rules.

Thats true.  Adding a max would cause a lot more problems at reg and that is not something you want to have.

Don't see why. With the player card setup, a limit wouldn't be a problem at all. It would have been a pain in the @$$ in the days before the playercard and almost impossible to enforce. As it stands now, it would be easy peasy, though I'm stil not sure it's the best-fit solution.