TOPIC: Going back to fewer auctions/non competing auctions?

Rob F wrote: Matt Soto -

You have every right to run any auction you'd like to at any time you'd like to. If others have a problem with this then it's just too bad for them. It's that simple. There are no forum "rules" when it comes to auctions. People have their right to suggest an auction que system and you have every right to ignore it. If people don't like competition among auctioneers then they don't have to run an auction at the same time another is going on. At the end of the day the market will work itself out. For folks on here to say your causing trouble or ill will by doing what your doing is ridiculous. The only reason they'd say this is because they don't want any competition (probably because you've got better auction terms). And if your clear on your terms regarding carry over bids and people have an issue with it then oh well, they don't have to participate in your auctions.

I've never had a bad trade or auction experience with you and I will continue to bid on items in your auctions if it suites my preferences. Run whatever auction you'd like whenever you'd like to.

It isn’t just too bad for them. It seriously hurts the community’s credibility. TD lets us run auctions as a courtesy, not as a right. They could absolutely nix it as we are reselling their products prior to ownership without a resale agreement. The only thing keeping it on the rails is integrity in the community.

Utaku’s auctions aren’t transparent are are clearly a profit engine for him. He is actively trying to monopolize the market to block other people out. Even today, he broke Jeff’s rules about setting up auctions for pre-sale prior to current year orders being closed. I have personally bid before and had him walk away from the bids and restart the auction. I’m sure it was a learning curve issue for him and, hopefully, he’s improved. There is definitely a problem here and the insistence on blocking other people out by flooding the market and setting hidden “carry over” bids that ensure he decides who wins ties is problematic. Ties represent at least a quarter of bids in my own experience.

Seriously, if we don’t police this ourselves, TD will. This is a carry-over from people getting more aggressive in running auctions over the past 2 years so it isn’t just Utaku. He is just the next progression of it.

For all the people who have historically run 4+ auctions (somewhat arbitrary number) per year, ease off. Let other people -especially newer players and people who want to do very different auctions run some without going head to head. Similarly, if you are doing an auction, it has to be transparent. If you secretly carry-over bids from one to another without disclosing where the other bids were, it becomes purely arbitrary with the auctioneer just deciding who wins. I can’t imagine a legitimate bidding house ever allowing a policy like that (having participated in several myself.)

Stop trying to auctions into your own side businesses. They can help newer players catch up, keep the GT pool as broad as possible, and can introduce new an novel ideas. At the same time, they can help folks get stocked up on trade goods and PYP’s.

Fred

Seriously - carry over bids are really no different than me setting up a Python / Perl script on a high speed connection to submit a bid at exactly auction start time. Rollover is actually advantageous to those on slow internet and those that aren’t on the forums all hours of the day. If the roll over occurs after start time, then it’s no different than a normal bid, other than a slight bit of convenience for the bidder.

If your bidding strategy relies on ties to win items, it’s not likely to be a successful strategy - it’s more fishing for deals than anything.

Endgame wrote: Seriously - carry over bids are really no different than me setting up a Python / Perl script on a high speed connection to submit a bid at exactly auction start time. Rollover is actually advantageous to those on slow internet and those that aren’t on the forums all hours of the day. If the roll over occurs after start time, then it’s no different than a normal bid, other than a slight bit of convenience for the

If your bidding strategy relies on ties to win items, it’s not likely to be a successful strategy - it’s more fishing for deals than anything.

Entirely this.

TD lets us run auctions as a courtesy, not as a right. They could absolutely nix it as we are reselling their products prior to ownership without a resale agreement.

I don't really have a statement on the rest of this post. It's largely opinion and conjecture, which is fine. I don't think I agree with it, but it's just an opinion. This part though: these are group buys that fund the entire game. They could prohibit it on the forums, but I don't think they can actually prohibit reselling/organizing group buys. Resale/ownership rights are pretty clear on that.

Fred K wrote:

Rob F wrote: Matt Soto -

You have every right to run any auction you'd like to at any time you'd like to. If others have a problem with this then it's just too bad for them. It's that simple. There are no forum "rules" when it comes to auctions. People have their right to suggest an auction que system and you have every right to ignore it. If people don't like competition among auctioneers then they don't have to run an auction at the same time another is going on. At the end of the day the market will work itself out. For folks on here to say your causing trouble or ill will by doing what your doing is ridiculous. The only reason they'd say this is because they don't want any competition (probably because you've got better auction terms). And if your clear on your terms regarding carry over bids and people have an issue with it then oh well, they don't have to participate in your auctions.

I've never had a bad trade or auction experience with you and I will continue to bid on items in your auctions if it suites my preferences. Run whatever auction you'd like whenever you'd like to.

It isn’t just too bad for them. It seriously hurts the community’s credibility. TD lets us run auctions as a courtesy, not as a right. They could absolutely nix it as we are reselling their products prior to ownership without a resale agreement. The only thing keeping it on the rails is integrity in the community.

Utaku’s auctions aren’t transparent are are clearly a profit engine for him. He is actively trying to monopolize the market to block other people out. Even today, he broke Jeff’s rules about setting up auctions for pre-sale prior to current year orders being closed. I have personally bid before and had him walk away from the bids and restart the auction. I’m sure it was a learning curve issue for him and, hopefully, he’s improved. There is definitely a problem here and the insistence on blocking other people out by flooding the market and setting hidden “carry over” bids that ensure he decides who wins ties is problematic. Ties represent at least a quarter of bids in my own experience.

Seriously, if we don’t police this ourselves, TD will. This is a carry-over from people getting more aggressive in running auctions over the past 2 years so it isn’t just Utaku. He is just the next progression of it.

For all the people who have historically run 4+ auctions (somewhat arbitrary number) per year, ease off. Let other people -especially newer players and people who want to do very different auctions run some without going head to head. Similarly, if you are doing an auction, it has to be transparent. If you secretly carry-over bids from one to another without disclosing where the other bids were, it becomes purely arbitrary with the auctioneer just deciding who wins. I can’t imagine a legitimate bidding house ever allowing a policy like that (having participated in several myself.)

Stop trying to auctions into your own side businesses. They can help newer players catch up, keep the GT pool as broad as possible, and can introduce new an novel ideas. At the same time, they can help folks get stocked up on trade goods and PYP’s.

Fred

I don't recall seeing any rules or suggestions from TD regarding auctions. If there was one please point me to the source.

I do 100% agree that there should be 100% transparency in any auction. If there's an issue with Matt's transparency in his auctions then he should definitely correct it.

Other then that I see no problem with him running multiple auctions. I understand that you as well as others do. If enough people have an issue with it then they won't bid on his auctions and they won't fund. But if he keeps running them, people keep bidding, and they keep funding then that tells me most people are fine with it.

I think for newer players that don't want to cough up the $500 or so dollars ($1,300 if you live in Illinois and have to pay the sales tax of $800, unless you have a resale cert) then it's a nice service.

Rob F wrote: Other then that I see no problem with him running multiple auctions. I understand that you as well as others do. If enough people have an issue with it then they won't bid on his auctions and they won't fund. But if he keeps running them, people keep bidding, and they keep funding then that tells me most people are fine with it.

This.

I’ve several times in the last couple of days started a post that would have been less than helpful and then thought better of it. But Rob F sums it up better and nicer than I would have.

Yep, this. The transparency point is important too.

As a bidder in auctions, I can say that the price point of PYPs has dropped with the frequency of auctions by Utaku. As someone who picks up 3-6 UR per year from auctions, I can definitely tell you getting PYP for $85-90 is much more appealing than paying $110-125 (which I have paid for auctions from some of the other folks I’ve seen in this thread). While I’m not an economist, it makes sense to me that the market value of certain items will change as increased volume of a product is introduced to the consumer. Since they’re all $8k, that means value of some items increases to compensate for decreased cost on PYP. Translates to Patron pins, GT opportunity, dragon orbs, and the other high end chips becoming more expensive. With more auctions running that are still being funded, I’d say the market is still functioning fine with pricing where it is at. While it may not be super satisfactory that you’re paying $800 for Patron pins and GT runs, I’d hazard a guess that only the 5% wealthiest players generally are affected negatively. On the other hand, it tells me that the game is becoming more popular than ever, and decreasing pricing of gear that can get players to functioning in Nightmare difficulty can only help the overall game and experience.
*Edit - also as I just went to Skullcon as my first event specific for special TD stuff, I saw a number of players who had multiple Patron and Skull runs. I understand the love and investment many have in the game - but it’s also a tough pill to swallow when I see people arguing over rollover bidding with the cost of a chip being $5 more, when it costs $68 or $88 (depending on con) to play in the first place. True Dungeon is not a poor man’s game.

I believe the price drop on PYPs has very little to do with the PYPs themselves.

First, Patron pins were dramatically more valuable due to 3 reasons:

1) early booking for VTD. This gives people who wouldn’t normally bid on one due to lack of access to origins a reason to bid.

2) a virtual patron event. another virtual reason

3) physical patron event at skull con. If you were paying 800 or more to get to skull con for just one run, then spending extra to go on the patron run could have made a lot of sense.

Second:

Pirate maps. A certain portion of the player base loves these, and that has roughly tripled the price of low end trade goods.

Third

New multi year: the new rings are commanding a higher price than the last few teeth.

With these 3 factors in play, and an auction close trigger set at a specific price, PYPs had no where to go but down.

Endgame wrote: I believe the price drop on PYPs has very little to do with the PYPs themselves.

First, Patron pins were dramatically more valuable due to 3 reasons:

1) early booking for VTD. This gives people who wouldn’t normally bid on one due to lack of access to origins a reason to bid.

2) a virtual patron event. another virtual reason

3) physical patron event at skull con. If you were paying 800 or more to get to skull con for just one run, then spending extra to go on the patron run could have made a lot of sense.

Second:

Pirate maps. A certain portion of the player base loves these, and that has roughly tripled the price of low end trade goods.

Third

New multi year: the new rings are commanding a higher price than the last few teeth.

With these 3 factors in play, and an auction close trigger set at a specific price, PYPs had no where to go but down.

I was just about to post something very similar. I don't think the price of the PYPs is tied to how many auctions are running, it's tied to how much the other items in the auction sell for, since the auction ends when the total sale prices are met. As you said, this year the $1K incentive token (Ring) is selling for more than the Tooth did, Patron prices are up, and Trade Item prices are up. I also think that's why so many auctions are funding as compared to some years in the recent past.

I agree with Endgame, but would add a fourth. Transmute costs are up, requiring more trade goods to complete. This is keeping DS and MH stubbornly high.

Trade goods is one area where I would like to see more information from Utaku on how many of those are going for rollover bids versus bids put in after the auction starts.

This whole thread reminds me of this office clip.

TD auctions are currently in the good old days, yet people are complaining non-stop about them.

Just to put out a slightly opposing opinion. I don’t think anyone should divulge pseudonym info. Doing so would limit my future investment in the game, and is why I do not bid in open auctions. Making it worth my time, like others have in the past, and allowing me to divulge might however get me to individually divulge info such as moniker which I would have less issue with than unhindered public disclosure.

I also don’t appreciate having folks doxed though, and others are okay with random or semi random people having that done to them. I suppose both views have their place, and monikers are not quite the same as phone numbers, legal names, and current address. Unless it gets into a spreadsheet on accident sometime, then it could just be a full doxing. That hasn’t happened on the forums yet though, right?