TOPIC: Thoughts on Eldest Dragon Orb

Fiddy wrote: Having given this quite a bit of thought over the last day, I think part of it is simply how the token (the dragon pet) is presented, and as a result how it is perceived. It looks like just another Rare token you'd get out of the treasure box. And one that I might easily just chuck into a transmute bag by mistake.

I think if it was simply printed as a special Rarity on say the same color token backing as the Dragon Orbs, it'd feel a lot more special to me. With the way it is currently presented though, it feels like 1/25th an Aragonite instead of something special.

My +1 as well. Perhaps arrange a trade to the "prettier" token for those who get the old backing. It is an optical change for a perception dissonance problem. I know I would feel irrationally happier with a different color (Not that I will be getting the token myself). Then again the aggrieved might feel doubly aggrieved with only the cosmetic change. No winning.

I think that this topic is facinating, and since most of the previous replies are from long term players I thought that a newbie viewpoint might be interesting. I have just started playing and am trying to build, from scratch, a token collection.

My first observation is:
Like many gamers I am drawn to min/max'ing, but I have also spent enough time thinking about the games I like most to realize that interesting choices and variance are actually what brings me back. Strictly better/worse items quickly boil down to just an economic decision (which can still be fun but is more limited). To this end, the new pet slot is undeniably interesting. It is unique and rare and a great vanity token. It will be a shame if it doesn't get used simply because it feels like using it is a nerfed attack. Maybe it could get a couple of other situational familiar like abilities. Everyone wants a Mushu of their own!

My second observation is:
The TD economy is very complex with a lot of moving parts. This, plus trying to understand the importance of various stats, and fit that all back into builds for all the various classes is a daunting task. The learning curve was quite complex with my path starting with ebay, then finding token stores, then understanding token auctions (which requires a whole sub understanding of the transmute economy). Eventually I will move on to transmutes of my own. As part of the learning process, I naturally found myself trying to digest the relevance of the various 8K auction components. Even though PYP is obviously the key component for someone new, understanding the value of all the other components that help to make the PYP's portion affordable is definitely relevant. It took a bit of time and forum searching but I did not find it especially difficult to build a perspective the various auction parts, including the dragon orbs. The posts and discussions seemed pretty clear to me. My gut feel, based on my very limited perspective, is that incorrect expectations of the orbs are more likely due individual FOMO, hopes and dreams, and the pyramid behavior that is inevitable in a collector economic model. And again, I find this particular reward pretty cool ... making me more likely, not less, of buying into a future mystery sequence.

So in summary, I recognize that my opinion is one of someone that was not financially invested in this particular scenario, but from my viewpoint a corrective action of removing random unknown miscellaneous "fun" tokens and sequences feels like a net negative.

Mike Steele wrote: Jeff, I don't think you have anything to apologize for. You said at the start it would just be geeky fun, it's not your fault if anyone expected more.

+1

Jeff you do not need to apologize. Everyone loves the surprises you add to the game like the 10 year story arc culmination at Skull Con. No one is saying you shouldn't do them. Please do not stop doing them! It is great that you are looking to plan more because that will only help keep this great game alive longer (and your need to feel like you should apologize to be minimal).

With the theme of not very powerful and geeky fun at its whole design concept (which is good by the way) I do think something should change based upon the following reasons.

It doesn't stand out

Fiddy wrote: I think if it was simply printed as a special Rarity on say the same color token backing as the Dragon Orbs, it'd feel a lot more special to me. With the way it is currently presented though, it feels like 1/25th an Aragonite instead of something special.

It soon will be replaced:

Fiddy wrote: ...the likelihood of it getting quickly outshone by future pets seems high.

This has already happened very recently with the Bead of the Lucky Traveler being supplanted by:

• Bead of Focus
• Bead of Guided Strike
• Master's Ale Drinker's Bead

All in the last 3 years and that doesn't count the upcoming year of Bead of Bounty, and Whisper Beads.

It will rarely be used:
~85% of the playing classes aren't primary ranged attackers (especially at the Nightmare/Epic level) where players that have these tokens play. This means that most of the players owning this token can't hit with it, and even if they do, it means significantly less damage than their normal attack.

I just feel if it doesn't stand out, will soon be supplanted, and not used much before then doesn't create geeky fun.

So as a wise man told me never bring up an issue without posing a solution. Kirk offered a very usable one in this thread (auto-hit, slide # + damage wheel for total damage). My idea would be some Rare type of defensive power that is active while you have your Spirt Pet (some examples):

• +2 Cloak of Resistance: +2 saves - dragon warns you of impending doom
• Bead Firehold: -3 damage from Fire - dragon's spirt aura protects you from fire
• No current token: -2 damage from Psychic - dragon's spirt aura protects your mind

My opinion is many players would love to see more Spirit Pet tokens coming in the future. I see the players nodding along here. Jeff, regardless of what you choose to do on this token think deeply about any future Spirt Pet tokens and their impact.

Thanks for posting this and for allowing and absorbing the community's feedback.

For what its worth I love the dragon as is, it's a dragon. It's an awsome looking token. Im sad I will never own one for economic reasons but very happy that they exist and that some people who supported the game will.

I think you handled this perfectly, you did exactly what you said you would so. Its awesome and IMO anyone complaining reminds me Dudley Dursley yelling 37!

FOMO and buyers remorse cause powerful emotions but let's all try to remember the spirit it which this was done.

That said the reality is people do spend significant money on TD over multiyear time horizons so I think setting clear expectations as early as possible and maintaining communication of your intentions with the community is a very good idea.

If you transmuted Eldest, should be able to build a ranged build.

If you transmuted Eldest, play may not be that challenging anyway, so can just slide the pet because it's fun to do something different.

I hadn't played in person since prepandemic. In sliding, I'm sometimes bumping people rather than caring about hitting but hit anyway because numbers. I'm also doing things like hitting on a 3 because build is way overpowered for difficulty level.

Mechanically, I would have tried to come up with something that couldn't be compared to what is already possible, but there's not a lot that people do in TD combat and dragon theme may not translate well outside of combat.

I see Fiddy's point about appearances. If there were not going to be other spirit pets, the AG on the token would be a horrible idea. As it sounds like there will be other spirit pets, though them being weaker than this sounds like people will just complain about how useless those are, too, then having those be transmutable may or may not make sense.

Tyraël The Just wrote:

Fiddy wrote: Having given this quite a bit of thought over the last day, I think part of it is simply how the token (the dragon pet) is presented, and as a result how it is perceived. It looks like just another Rare token you'd get out of the treasure box. And one that I might easily just chuck into a transmute bag by mistake.

I think if it was simply printed as a special Rarity on say the same color token backing as the Dragon Orbs, it'd feel a lot more special to me. With the way it is currently presented though, it feels like 1/25th an Aragonite instead of something special.

Got my vote +1

+2!!

I love the Orb, I honestly have no complaint about the power level. You were upfront from the beginning that it wasn’t going to be a game-changer. My only request/wish is that we could do something to make this Cool Geeky Fun Spirit Dragon stand out a bit

I’d love a different colour backing, or UR typing, or some other exchange down the road. (We’ve had the $1k perk token reprinted for exchange on a different colour token back… I’d love to see the Spirit Dragon - and future familiars! - get their own unique look)

Raven wrote:

Tyraël The Just wrote:

Fiddy wrote: Having given this quite a bit of thought over the last day, I think part of it is simply how the token (the dragon pet) is presented, and as a result how it is perceived. It looks like just another Rare token you'd get out of the treasure box. And one that I might easily just chuck into a transmute bag by mistake.

I think if it was simply printed as a special Rarity on say the same color token backing as the Dragon Orbs, it'd feel a lot more special to me. With the way it is currently presented though, it feels like 1/25th an Aragonite instead of something special.

Got my vote +1

+2!!

I love the Orb, I honestly have no complaint about the power level. You were upfront from the beginning that it wasn’t going to be a game-changer. My only request/wish is that we could do something to make this Cool Geeky Fun token stand out a bit

I’d love a different colour backing, or UR typing, or some other exchange down the road. (We’ve had the $1k perk token reprinted for exchange on a different colour token back… I’d love to see the Spirit Dragon - and future familiars! - get their own unique look)

I have been reading all the posts and rereading mine… and I think mine may be confusing. Jeff, you were upfront that it was not going to be Uber or UR powerful, it’s hard to control the geek in my that likes to dream. My disappointment is all of MY OWN making. This is an amazing token and I hope we will see many more.


PST… Jeff…. Now that they know they are coming…. You can make a powerful one… you know… just for fun

MasterED wrote: Jeff you do not need to apologize. Everyone loves the surprises you add to the game like the 10 year story arc culmination at Skull Con. No one is saying you shouldn't do them. Please do not stop doing them! It is great that you are looking to plan more because that will only help keep this great game alive longer (and your need to feel like you should apologize to be minimal).

With the theme of not very powerful and geeky fun at its whole design concept (which is good by the way) I do think something should change based upon the following reasons.

It doesn't stand out

Fiddy wrote: I think if it was simply printed as a special Rarity on say the same color token backing as the Dragon Orbs, it'd feel a lot more special to me. With the way it is currently presented though, it feels like 1/25th an Aragonite instead of something special.

It soon will be replaced:

Fiddy wrote: ...the likelihood of it getting quickly outshone by future pets seems high.

This has already happened very recently with the Bead of the Lucky Traveler being supplanted by:

• Bead of Focus
• Bead of Guided Strike
• Master's Ale Drinker's Bead

All in the last 3 years and that doesn't count the upcoming year of Bead of Bounty, and Whisper Beads.

It will rarely be used:
~85% of the playing classes aren't primary ranged attackers (especially at the Nightmare/Epic level) where players that have these tokens play. This means that most of the players owning this token can't hit with it, and even if they do, it means significantly less damage than their normal attack.

I just feel if it doesn't stand out, will soon be supplanted, and not used much before then doesn't create geeky fun.

So as a wise man told me never bring up an issue without posing a solution. Kirk offered a very usable one in this thread (auto-hit, slide # + damage wheel for total damage). My idea would be some Rare type of defensive power that is active while you have your Spirt Pet (some examples):

• +2 Cloak of Resistance: +2 saves - dragon warns you of impending doom
• Bead Firehold: -3 damage from Fire - dragon's spirt aura protects you from fire
• No current token: -2 damage from Psychic - dragon's spirt aura protects your mind

My opinion is many players would love to see more Spirit Pet tokens coming in the future. I see the players nodding along here. Jeff, regardless of what you choose to do on this token think deeply about any future Spirt Pet tokens and their impact.

Thanks for posting this and for allowing and absorbing the community's feedback.

Ed, as always a very well thought out post. Great points here.

Given that a player can use the spirit dragon without the orb, IMO the logical, and slightly fluffy way to handle a power boost would to keep the dragon exactly as it is, but have the dragon orb give spirit pet dragons something.

Ex: while equipping this orb, dragon pets hit on a 15 and deal eldrich damage.

Jeff Martin wrote: Please see this post made nearly 7 years ago.

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=5&id=242386#242480

I am sorry that I did not manage expectations better -- as some folks are disappointed in the Rare token they received with their Eldest token. It all was handled very poorly by me.

This whole thing started as a surprise "thank you" nearly seven years ago -- and at that time I got a some of angry emails after these appeared. Folks communicated the sentiment that "had I known this was happening, I would have gotten an $8K order" -- and they were mad that they missed out on something really cool that was coming after the eight Orbs were collected.

Therefore, I made it clear in the post above that the Eldest power would be "geeky fun" -- and nothing powerful that folks would feel bad about missing. Therefore, we decided to go with the fun "summon a spirit 1/game" concept to meet that stated goal. Believe me...it was tempting to make something UR powerful that would probably help out future token sales. However, I felt it was best to stick to our nearly 7 year old plan.

Yes...it would have been much better financially for TD to promise some UR level powerful token/power in advance (or after the surprise) but that has not been our style. We did the same "surprise revel" with the Rod of Seven Parts in 2008 -- which just showed up un-announced after the token year was over. I thought I was being "cool" with these un-announced thank you tokens, but unfortunately they have caused more woe and weal. I guess my brain just works differently than some.

I have learned my lesson...finally. I won't do these "surprise" thank you tokens any more. The $8K thank you token for 2023 will be announced soon -- as well as the exact power of the of their multi-year Uber-transmute.

Thank you for your understanding, support and willingness to put up with me screwing stuff up on occasion.

Jeff - don’t let a tiny number of loud voices be mistaken for anything resembling the general consensus. Virtually everyone understood that you were clear that the item we’d get would be minor and not significant from a power perspective.

Personally, I would have been happy with a TD branded stuffed plushy dragon with no powers. Of the people who transmuted the 8 token set, I haven’t run into anyone who thought you were unfair.

As usual, a tiny minority of very loud individuals screams to get your attention- please don’t mistake them for anything vaguely representative of the community as a whole.

Fred

Endgame wrote: Given that a player can use the spirit dragon without the orb, IMO the logical, and slightly fluffy way to handle a power boost would to keep the dragon exactly as it is, but have the dragon orb give spirit pet dragons something.

Ex: while equipping this orb, dragon pets hit on a 15 and deal eldrich damage.

Maybe if the holder of the orb uses the 1/game dragon pet attack, it is a free action, extra attack? Any other user hasn’t tamed the pet completely, and it is a regular attack?