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TOPIC: Treasure Inflation

Treasure Inflation 3 months 3 weeks ago #97

Jamie Campbell wrote: I will say, I am disappointed with the notion of inflation. My group’s hope was that we could buy CoAs and then “work” for the rest. With the draw of UR drops down so badly, we quickly realized “working” for it wasn’t efficient even though between us we were doing 100 draws a run...as a result, we joined the ranks of auction buying to achieve.

Know this, whether you like or not, the current CoA was the method to stop pay to play...but with the mix changes, we unwound the effect and are right back to pay to play. Meaning, to get tokens you must buy them from 8Ks or secondary market if older.

I can say We as a group made some choices:
If we found UR at 1% draws...then we had no problem spending 5 people running and buy all the dungeons. Even so far as we were going to play nightmare and gruel through it instead of playing a ton of normals...(not fun)
The drop rate was not even close to 1%

So, now that we see from our runs that 1D100 doesn’t work on treasure draws...we had to reassess

It made sense to us in the beginning...$250 bought you 30 packs and 1UR choice...$58x5=$290...we thought we would see 1 UR.


1% UR's is probably a good rate for those draws from treasure boxes. It would match what the web site says for 10 packs. New players don't really get the distinction between 10 packs and the treasure box. We had this in the past but it has dropped to less than half of that now. Getting a UR from 10 packs is still cheaper than via runs at 1% of the draws (there aren't runs at $20 per slot where you could apply 21 draws and take 5 slots for $100 invested). Your cheapest runs are probably closer to $45 per slot meaning $225 per UR minus the value of everything else drawn (usually somewhat negligible).

It really does seem to make sense to have more than 1 draw box the more everyone discusses it.
1 box for draws of UC, Rares, relics, URs, and legendaries.
1 box for monster bits, trade goods, map fragments, gold bars, and other random odds and ends.

The second box should cost more to draw (some multiple of draws from the normal box) but not have a ton that is immediately usable for the average player. By comparison, the first box should be nothing but immediately usable draws (no treasure, bits, and even pull out gold if possible) just equipment, potion, scrolls, etc..

The confused and disappointed look from newer players drawing oil of enchantment then hearing it can't be used in-game says it all. The disappointed look from vets drawing 80 UCs and rares, 3 monster bits, and an enchanter's whetstone is as equally telling (it's "sigh, do I have time during the con to transmute this so I'm not carrying an extra 5# of tokens home...)

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Treasure Inflation 3 months 3 weeks ago #98

Personally I like all the different interesting treasures box only tokens and want them to keep producing them.

As for URs I don’t know what the proper amount in the mix should be. If my math isn’t wrong it looks like if you have max pulls you have about a 4% chance of pulling a UR somewhere in the pulls based on the gencon numbers on the spreadsheet. Please correct me if I can’t math.

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Treasure Inflation 3 months 3 weeks ago #99

Fred K wrote:

Jamie Campbell wrote: I will say, I am disappointed with the notion of inflation. My group’s hope was that we could buy CoAs and then “work” for the rest. With the draw of UR drops down so badly, we quickly realized “working” for it wasn’t efficient even though between us we were doing 100 draws a run...as a result, we joined the ranks of auction buying to achieve.

Know this, whether you like or not, the current CoA was the method to stop pay to play...but with the mix changes, we unwound the effect and are right back to pay to play. Meaning, to get tokens you must buy them from 8Ks or secondary market if older.

I can say We as a group made some choices:
If we found UR at 1% draws...then we had no problem spending 5 people running and buy all the dungeons. Even so far as we were going to play nightmare and gruel through it instead of playing a ton of normals...(not fun)
The drop rate was not even close to 1%

So, now that we see from our runs that 1D100 doesn’t work on treasure draws...we had to reassess

It made sense to us in the beginning...$250 bought you 30 packs and 1UR choice...$58x5=$290...we thought we would see 1 UR.


1% UR's is probably a good rate for those draws from treasure boxes. It would match what the web site says for 10 packs. New players don't really get the distinction between 10 packs and the treasure box. We had this in the past but it has dropped to less than half of that now. Getting a UR from 10 packs is still cheaper than via runs at 1% of the draws (there aren't runs at $20 per slot where you could apply 21 draws and take 5 slots for $100 invested). Your cheapest runs are probably closer to $45 per slot meaning $225 per UR minus the value of everything else drawn (usually somewhat negligible).

It really does seem to make sense to have more than 1 draw box the more everyone discusses it.
1 box for draws of UC, Rares, relics, URs, and legendaries.
1 box for monster bits, trade goods, map fragments, gold bars, and other random odds and ends.

The second box should cost more to draw (some multiple of draws from the normal box) but not have a ton that is immediately usable for the average player. By comparison, the first box should be nothing but immediately usable draws (no treasure, bits, and even pull out gold if possible) just equipment, potion, scrolls, etc..

The confused and disappointed look from newer players drawing oil of enchantment then hearing it can't be used in-game says it all. The disappointed look from vets drawing 80 UCs and rares, 3 monster bits, and an enchanter's whetstone is as equally telling (it's "sigh, do I have time during the con to transmute this so I'm not carrying an extra 5# of tokens home...)

Fred


Fred,

I read this first part a few times. Getting 100 10 packs...$825. Now with $80*10...cost of full run...200 pulls...someone should see a UR making this 0.5%.

I used the pulls spreadsheet to get the idea of UR pull rates. I am responding on my phone, but the theory is this:

If I spend $580 (10 slots) and 20 pulls each...200 pulls...I would expect to see 2 URs to match up to what I would do with two $250 orders (60 10paks and 2UR choices)

I got an Oil of Enchantment...nice to get...

Gen Con Only UR+ percentages
2019 .30% on 7417 draws
2018 .41% on 5604 draws
2017 .64% on 9554 draws
2016 1.65% on 5507 draws
...thanks Jedi posting

So...in the end...I think the idea they have done is to make it such that a full run of CoA. One draw WILL be the UR. (Probabilities of course)

But this means simply the spend doesn’t match up. $250 for a UR. Or $580 for same UR. ..and other things sure and “fun”. But not at 2x the price
Jamie
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Last edit: by Jamie Campbell.

Treasure Inflation 3 months 3 weeks ago #100

What is the purpose of going through the dungeon? Is it to have fun in the experience of doing it or is it to gain treasure?
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Treasure Inflation 3 months 3 weeks ago #101

Bob Chasan wrote: What is the purpose of going through the dungeon? Is it to have fun in the experience of doing it or is it to gain treasure?

Can it be both?
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Treasure Inflation 3 months 3 weeks ago #102

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Bob Chasan wrote: What is the purpose of going through the dungeon? Is it to have fun in the experience of doing it or is it to gain treasure?


Yes. B)
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Treasure Inflation 3 months 3 weeks ago #103

Bob Chasan wrote: What is the purpose of going through the dungeon? Is it to have fun in the experience of doing it or is it to gain treasure?


Yeah, I don't think it's reasonable to expect the same amount of treasure from the dungeon as you could get just buying the tokens from TD. After all, if you could get *more* treasure from the dungeon, the runs would be bought out by treasure miners entirely. And Jamie, your calculations have discounted the fact that in your scenario, at least 5 people got 2 hours of enjoyment out of the dungeon. That has to be worth something :)

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Treasure Inflation 3 months 3 weeks ago #104

Bob Chasan wrote: What is the purpose of going through the dungeon? Is it to have fun in the experience of doing it or is it to gain treasure?


Agreed. To have fun...but the more pointed question is the purpose of CoA. I hypothesize that a key element of the CoA was to provide a method to “play” your way...not “pay” your way. My wife actually hoped the CoA would provide the Method to play your way instead of needing to go secondary market to do it.

I know everyone has views on this...but I think it MUST be considered of utmost importance the thought patterns of those who didn’t grow into the legend that is True Dungeon. Only then will you expand the base. We had legends in Beyond Protocol because they were there at the beginning...and those veterans all had their opinions but didn’t realize they were excluding and creating an elitist cult within the game..as a producer of that game, we failed to focus on how to bring the others who weren’t there the first year along...video games are much faster turns than games in real life. Simple enough to pay $60 and get a new game...$15/month was worth a try... I think my point is...I beg for the veterans to challenge the hard problem of how to make others belong...

Let me give it to you this way:

What are you going to do when four people going the TD Grind Raids...and they only have 3 URs. Will it be inclusive?

Tough problem and the inflation is one aspect of the critical success factors for expanding.
The veterans told us about CoA and ultimately a means to get more treasure and “play our way”...but if so many things come out so random...just get stuck. Perhaps the “treasure” should all be GP...and then you spend your way to the items. 15000 GP for a UR of current year? Perhaps? And now we are measuring differently but more uniform to the old player and the new player.

No one is going to want a CoA if it doesn’t produce the ability to “play” your way...
Jamie
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Last edit: by Jamie Campbell.

Treasure Inflation 3 months 3 weeks ago #105

Braxton wrote:

Bob Chasan wrote: What is the purpose of going through the dungeon? Is it to have fun in the experience of doing it or is it to gain treasure?


Yeah, I don't think it's reasonable to expect the same amount of treasure from the dungeon as you could get just buying the tokens from TD. After all, if you could get *more* treasure from the dungeon, the runs would be bought out by treasure miners entirely. And Jamie, your calculations have discounted the fact that in your scenario, at least 5 people got 2 hours of enjoyment out of the dungeon. That has to be worth something :)


You also have to take into account that you could sell your CoA for around what you paid (the value has been pretty stable). Doing that, you could consider all the bonus tokens as essentially free. And, if you do "pay off" the CoA from token pulls, you're really $1,000+ ahead of the game, because you still have a CoA worth that much. :)

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Treasure Inflation 3 months 3 weeks ago #106

Jamie Campbell wrote:

Bob Chasan wrote: What is the purpose of going through the dungeon? Is it to have fun in the experience of doing it or is it to gain treasure?


Agreed. To have fun...but the more pointed question is the purpose of CoA. I hypothesize that a key element of the CoA was to provide a method to “play” your way...not “pay” your way. My wife actually hoped the CoA would provide the Method to play your way instead of needing to go secondary market to do it.

I know everyone has views on this...but I think it MUST be considered of utmost importance the thought patterns of those who didn’t grow into the legend that is True Dungeon. Only then will you expand the base. We had legends in Beyond Protocol because they were there at the beginning...and those veterans all had their opinions but didn’t realize they were excluding and creating an elitist cult within the game..as a producer of that game, we failed to focus on how to bring the others who weren’t there the first year along...video games are much faster turns than games in real life. Simple enough to pay $60 and get a new game...$15/month was worth a try... I think my point is...I beg for the veterans to challenge the hard problem of how to make others belong...

Let me give it to you this way:

What are you going to do when four people going the TD Grind Raids...and they only have 3 URs. Will it be inclusive?

Tough problem and the inflation is one aspect of the critical success factors for expanding.
The veterans told us about CoA and ultimately a means to get more treasure and “play our way”...but if so many things come out so random...just get stuck. Perhaps the “treasure” should all be GP...and then you spend your way to the items. 15000 GP for a UR of current year? Perhaps? And now we are measuring differently but more uniform to the old player and the new player.

No one is going to want a CoA if it doesn’t produce the ability to “play” your way...

I’m currently working through building CoAs for my group. I have the components for 2 more, which will bring us to 4 total, and we have a goal of 6.

I say that as a backdrop for the next statement.

You should never be able to come out ahead from a run based on treasure pulled, especially at gen con. We don’t want to compete with buying our runs of One of each dungeon for a convention with people buying runs just for the treasure.

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Treasure Inflation 3 months 3 weeks ago #107

Jamie Campbell wrote: I will say, I am disappointed with the notion of inflation. My group’s hope was that we could buy CoAs and then “work” for the rest. With the draw of UR drops down so badly, we quickly realized “working” for it wasn’t efficient even though between us we were doing 100 draws a run...as a result, we joined the ranks of auction buying to achieve.

Know this, whether you like or not, the current CoA was the method to stop pay to play...but with the mix changes, we unwound the effect and are right back to pay to play. Meaning, to get tokens you must buy them from 8Ks or secondary market if older.

I can say We as a group made some choices:
If we found UR at 1% draws...then we had no problem spending 5 people running and buy all the dungeons. Even so far as we were going to play nightmare and gruel through it instead of playing a ton of normals...(not fun)
The drop rate was not even close to 1%

So, now that we see from our runs that 1D100 doesn’t work on treasure draws...we had to reassess

It made sense to us in the beginning...$250 bought you 30 packs and 1UR choice...$58x5=$290...we thought we would see 1 UR.


Hang in there. I think your group was very wise to go that route -- even if the mix wasn't great this year, your COA's will pay off eventually.

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Treasure Inflation 3 months 3 weeks ago #108

Mike Steele wrote:

Braxton wrote:

Bob Chasan wrote: What is the purpose of going through the dungeon? Is it to have fun in the experience of doing it or is it to gain treasure?


Yeah, I don't think it's reasonable to expect the same amount of treasure from the dungeon as you could get just buying the tokens from TD. After all, if you could get *more* treasure from the dungeon, the runs would be bought out by treasure miners entirely. And Jamie, your calculations have discounted the fact that in your scenario, at least 5 people got 2 hours of enjoyment out of the dungeon. That has to be worth something :)


You also have to take into account that you could sell your CoA for around what you paid (the value has been pretty stable). Doing that, you could consider all the bonus tokens as essentially free. And, if you do "pay off" the CoA from token pulls, you're really $1,000+ ahead of the game, because you still have a CoA worth that much. :)


Couple things:

1...love the game
2...the people I have met are awesome as all gamers are
3...the problem with games are when they compete for disposable income, people naturally min/max their fun factors
4...we totally enjoy the dungeon but here is the thought: we could play each dungeon once. Beat the game...done. But rest assured we have spent much more for TD than what we have spent IN the dungeon. TD needs us buying tokens. Otherwise the price of entry hits $150 or more per run
5...to get the revenue, it’s either “pay to play”...or “play and pay”...why not both? Inflation is fine but the issue is to serve the entire masses. URs are amazing...Rare and Uncommon for the first three runs are great...so what happens next year when you have just made a complete build and everything you acquired is just “meh”...now we gotta get into a trade pattern with a very inefficient market. The Bid-Ask for the Belt of the Ogre is varied...and the commission costs are high. If the treasure pulls went to GP of various values, you get the same thrills and ultimately it serves both player castes.
Jamie
AureliusBP

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Last edit: by Jamie Campbell.
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