Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me

TOPIC: Treasure Inflation

Treasure Inflation 2 months 2 weeks ago #61

BasicBraining wrote: (OT, does game lore have a legendary Cleric?)


Depending on what you mean... Gearon would likely be my first answer.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Treasure Inflation 2 months 2 weeks ago #62

Fiddy wrote:

BasicBraining wrote: (OT, does game lore have a legendary Cleric?)


Depending on what you mean... Gearon would likely be my first answer.


I might say Wyrmmeister, he's #8 on the XP list and has played every Dungeon and True Heroes adventure except for the 2003 and 2004 True Dungeons. :)

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Treasure Inflation 2 months 2 weeks ago #63

Rob F wrote: Just a comment on the 2019 Bits. I have seen a number of posts stating the "reduced" number of 2019 Bits. I believe Jeff's post about the Bits stated that he ordered the same amount of 2019 Bits as prior year. It's just that the boxes were diluted with other stuff. So..as long as all treasure gets pulled there will be the same number of Bits in the market as prior years.


Here is the exact quote.

Jeff Martin wrote: Thanks for giving me a good platform to talk about this.

I had no plans to make the Monster Bits less frequent this year. In fact, I ordered the same number as last time. However, what I screwed up was the fact that we were making a LOT more random treasure in 2019, and I should have increased the number of Monster Bits...instead of ordering the same. So, either fortunately or unfortunately (depending on the camp you are in) there is a smaller percentage of Monster Bits in the random treasure. The rates you saw at Origins will be the same at all other Cons in the 2019 season.


I don't believe it tells us what ordered the same number means. Does that mean total bits or of each bit because those are 2 different amounts. It also doesn't mean there are the same amount in the market because it doesn't take into fact need that people may have kept for themselves and not released into the market. That number may or may not have been higher than last year.
You either discover a star or you don't. You arrogant punk.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Treasure Inflation 2 months 2 weeks ago #64

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

True hero of time (THOT) wrote: As somebody who just invested in COA's. Changing to two mixes is a big **** &&& . Maybe I am the only one who feels that way because I just invested and have not had a chance to see ROI.

I picked up a second CoA, silver nugget, gold nugget set for ghosting so I definitely understand the bad ROI issue.
Probably would not have picked them up if it were not for diluted bits this year. Either way I’m not in favor of a second mix that is worse.


I probably have more CoAs than most people. I’ve gotten nearly zero ROI on most of them because they get loaned out to the rest of my party members and get nothing in return.

The way I look at it is this: the treasure is getting diluted anyway, whether there are two mixes or not. Having one mix only masks this fact, it doesn’t change it. So the only question is, can we dilute the treasure in a way that the newbies aren’t affected so much?

If we continue the way we are, we’re basically hurting people who don’t have max loot just to keep the rest of us at a reasonable level.

A single TC used to be much more valuable when I started accumulating CoAs. It doesn’t bother me so much that dilution is making them less valuable every year. If we’re honest, that’s true of almost every token.

Feeding greed created this situation, so someone has to shoulder the consequences. Why should it be the newbies? It’s not their fault. They’re already facing higher ticket prices every year without the mitigation of 20+ loot. They get 3. Maybe we can offset that with slightly better loot.


I’m guessing you picked up the parts and made your charm of avarice and that is why you don’t look at a ROI. And since TEs are the only tokens that have a true ROI and effectively lower the cost of doing runs many of us look at the extra pulls as a way of subsidizing our runs, without TEs I would run each dungeon 1 time and be done with it. TEs do Drive sales to a point and it’s with the basic understanding that over time the will be worth it.
My personal math says it takes 33 runs for a CoA to pay for itself and 17 runs for the nuggets (based on $100 PYP price on nugget and pulls being $3 expected value)
To have 10 CoA would be having $11,000 tied up in tokens just to loan if you buy them on the secondary market today. So yes I want to see a ROI on my second CoA (that I have used 0 times so far). The way I see it is as long as I’m paying for the ghost ticket then I should be able to use my tokens the TD has produced. I will say that when I lone TEs I Never expect or ask anything back in return since I feel that practice should be band.

If TD does add a second lower tier of tokens and it gets the value of TEs to not be worth while, then I’ll probably just sale off my extra TE’s and most of my other tokens and be a 1 time each dungeon kind of player. TEs and the ROI they provide goes that fare to offsetting cost on extra runs.
I’m posting my opinion not out of greed but because I’m not the only person that feels this way and if no counter points are made then there is a higher likelihood that this kind of proposal will go through. We all know most people don’t pay attention to the forms until closer to gencon or other cons so most of them will not get any input.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Treasure Inflation 2 months 2 weeks ago #65

Couple of reactions:

1. I think a key outcome we need to see in order to reduce the "inflation issue" is that we need to deal with the non-veteran player. To do this, another post talked about 3-5 rares makes a set...I am of the mindset that the "set" needs to be very counter to the UR/Relic features but interesting for someone with mostly red characters. Having that "SET" in the treasure boxes makes it valued for the newer players without inflating it for all "player levels".

1a, to this, one thought is the notion of enhancers to the "lesser" character level treatments. One inclusion would be a negation to the Medallion of Heroism or Ring of Fateful Heroism or Cooks Hat...for example, a set of "bits" that create a slotless item that lets the player negate those negated features.
1b. Token draws that are available in the treasure to create a specific Treasure Enhancer, but only useful in "Normal" difficulty. This will cater more to the new player and while veterans or midlife players might use it for farming...it wouldn't be widespread.

2. My group all bought the CoA, SN and GN right after origins.

...and we are not even close to seeing our ROI...but we are tracking... I understand the double-box concern...I definitely do...but it is hyperbole brainstorms that create new ideas...we need some new ideas. If double-box doesn't work...what does?

3. Treasure Inflation...inflation is healthy if CONSUMPTION is maintained. right now there is not enough consumption. It may exist in some elements of the game but it is definitely not consumed at the Uncommon/Rare level enough to soak up the supply. I think the SOLUTION to INFLATION is to INCREASE CONSUMPTION. Economists have been monitoring this for years. This was attempted with trade items, but this "soak" doesn't really address it.

4. There needs to be a consumption model at three levels to handle all aspects.
4a. Common should be removed from packs. (pack should be 5 tokens...1 rare, 3 uncommon, 1 common weapon). The common swap for UR is still there. For all other commons, these could be available in "stores" inside the main area for new players to get the experience of "preparing for a quest". I saw video of "towns"...TD can lease to vendors willing to roleplay...to manage the various elements...think live Diablo (even the music in background)
4b. Uncommon should be a major part of the trade item sets...but it should also be "set based". This lets consumption here be a part of the journey of the new player....spend $80...then buy another $20 of uncommon tokens to fill all the slots...spend $80 more to test their new character...they go to dungeon happy...transmute their first relic (from uncommon because they got the "last piece from a treasure pull")...ready to think about next year and buying their very first UR.
4c. Rare sets...3-5 in a set...you get a single UR capability.

Anyway...I really think to solve treasure inflation, we need to look at the DIFFERENT journeys of the player community. Within the player's journey...consumption is a key component and the useful consumption (not mulching) leads to better experiences IN the dungeons.
Jamie
AureliusBP

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by Jamie Campbell.

Treasure Inflation 2 months 2 weeks ago #66

Jamie Campbell wrote: ...


I will say it again. I don't know that we have enough data to know if there is treasure inflation. At the UR level only I would say there is a trend for the 3 data points we have. The fourth data point we don't know if it valid or not. At OTHER (non pack rares, non pack uncommon, non monster bits). The 3 valid point show NO trend.
You either discover a star or you don't. You arrogant punk.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Treasure Inflation 2 months 2 weeks ago #67

jedibcg wrote:

Jamie Campbell wrote: ...


I will say it again. I don't know that we have enough data to know if there is treasure inflation. At the UR level only I would say there is a trend for the 3 data points we have. The fourth data point we don't know if it valid or not. At OTHER (non pack rares, non pack uncommon, non monster bits). The 3 valid point show NO trend.


Fair enough...if there is no inflation...no idea...

I DO know this...not a single common I nor anyone I associate with...(except potions) is even considered keeping. They are all immediately discarded to mulch. If that is the case...then a new player is not interested either.

...unless there is a real reason to keep the commons...like a promoted common-only run of the dungeon...
Jamie
AureliusBP

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Treasure Inflation 2 months 2 weeks ago #68

Jamie Campbell wrote:
Fair enough...if there is no inflation...no idea...

I DO know this...not a single common I nor anyone I associate with...(except potions) is even considered keeping. They are all immediately discarded to mulch. If that is the case...then a new player is not interested either.

...unless there is a real reason to keep the commons...like a promoted common-only run of the dungeon...


I disagree about not a single common is worth keeping. I admit that you definitely can replace most commons with uncommons. But you can say the same thing about uncommons and rares. And then about rares and ultra rares. If you are saying they are very little value I would agree. If they are worth keeping depends on your level of play.

Without every buying a token and playing once. Most of your build is likely to be commons. If you keep playing you will replace those commons without doubt. That said there are still certain commons my group carries into ever dungeon.

tokendb.com/classification/gear/?fwp_rare_box=common

Now the usefulness of these tokens can be debated (and I likely am on the side of that they have little place in the dungeon any more, but can still be useful in grind at times.

I also love 1point heals so much that I do not convert them to Potion Condensed Healing. With Greater Alchemist Pouch 10 of them is 20 heals. They are great in puzzle rooms.

Gold also exist at the common level that I will gladly take from anyone that does not value them.

There are 20+ slots. Without buying tokens then the 7 commons in a pack do server a perhaps for players. How quickly they outgrow all slotted commons I don't know. But I bet it takes longer than most would think.
You either discover a star or you don't. You arrogant punk.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Treasure Inflation 2 months 2 weeks ago #69

on commons...I love potions...and I have a wide collection of all of them...GP...sure, I keep those 50GP and transmute a few for kicks...but again, to a brand new player...COMMON means just that...

they last long enough to hold a slot...and quickly you abandon them. I remember meeting you Jedi the first time I played this (and Bob...and Ed...and ultimately, I watched and learned quickly that albeit fun...I kept seeing the possible and immediately, I was driven to get more...)

I saw in the end...my group's immediate interest to move up the tree...we had rare builds by the end of Origins 2017...recall...we didn't have the GENCON HYPE...true newbies. In 2018, we got our first URs (mine was the Silver Nugget in a $250 buy..no idea about auctions at the time)...and then scoured the bins of Uncommons and rares and all came out with better builds.

Did it work? Yup! So much so I have CoAs...and ready to go big...but this year...yeah, I proved to my group that the ROI is not that great because ultimately, I need the secondary market to get what we really want...and then we got introduced to PYPs.

So inflation? Not sure...common usefulness? some...
Jamie
AureliusBP

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Treasure Inflation 2 months 2 weeks ago #70

Jamie Campbell wrote: on commons...I love potions...and I have a wide collection of all of them...GP...sure, I keep those 50GP and transmute a few for kicks...but again, to a brand new player...COMMON means just that...

they last long enough to hold a slot...and quickly you abandon them. I remember meeting you Jedi the first time I played this (and Bob...and Ed...and ultimately, I watched and learned quickly that albeit fun...I kept seeing the possible and immediately, I was driven to get more...)

I saw in the end...my group's immediate interest to move up the tree...we had rare builds by the end of Origins 2017...recall...we didn't have the GENCON HYPE...true newbies. In 2018, we got our first URs (mine was the Silver Nugget in a $250 buy..no idea about auctions at the time)...and then scoured the bins of Uncommons and rares and all came out with better builds.

Did it work? Yup! So much so I have CoAs...and ready to go big...but this year...yeah, I proved to my group that the ROI is not that great because ultimately, I need the secondary market to get what we really want...and then we got introduced to PYPs.

So inflation? Not sure...common usefulness? some...

I think you are the exception (and most of us on the forums) to the rule though. I don't know how many people spend any money on tokens.

I have suggested a run idea though where we find out but I think that I will wait till 2021 to pitch it as I think it makes more sense to do during a story arc.
You either discover a star or you don't. You arrogant punk.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by jedibcg.

Treasure Inflation 2 months 2 weeks ago #71

Commons are fantastic!

I've been building little starter sets for friends of friends that are playing for the first time. Some of those tokens are going to stay in builds for a long time, such as:

Blighted Pants - find another easy way to round out con?
Charm of Rampage - My groups barbarian is still using these
Ioun Stone Norse Opal - Most of my group is still using these until they get bumped for plantium nuggets.
2020 Charm of Vitality is sure to get some long term love
2020 Hunter's Leather Armor provides a Torso based ranged damage buff. No ranged damage buff exists anywhere else that I know of, not even legendary armor.

General staples that will get you through a normal run:
Blighted Boots - round out dex
Blighted Belt - round out strength
Bogling Shirt - +1 AC is pretty awesome on a dwarf fighter or paladin

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Treasure Inflation 2 months 2 weeks ago #72

perfect. now that we agree on exception....and everyone on this forum is probably the exception....

does the PLAYER (not on the forum)...think about their token build? what is the player journey in those player's minds? once we understand their journey...the sooner we get a datapoint on if there really is inflation...
Jamie
AureliusBP

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Time to create page: 0.248 seconds