TOPIC: Treasure Inflation

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

NightGod wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

macxdmg wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

sarielv wrote: > When I loan them out whatever people get is theirs. It doesn't feel comfortable otherwise - just a shady feel to it.

On the other side of that, I was a little disgusted when a whale benefactor came up to me at the end of a run with his palm out and I had to inform him I had a full set of boosters of my own, so I didn't need his largesse.

The end of the run part of that is a bit confusing. Wouldn't you have told the Coach that you had your own TE tokens when the person was trying to loan them out to the group in the coaching room?

If the gentleman was looking for anything more than a handshake and there wasn't an agreement ahead of time, that is pretty presumptuous.

I agree. I don't have a problem with the person loaning the TE's to get a share of the treasure chips, but only if it's agreed to ahead of time very clearly, with no type of pressure or strong-arming.

It has always seemed to me like it was taking advantage of TD a bit for someone to get a set of 10 TE tokens and then jump into pick up group after pick up group to share their TE tokens with everyone and take a portion of everyone's treasure chips in each run. I'd actually like to see more restrictions on loaning TE tokens, like each one can't be used by more than one person per convention, or even just no more than one person per day. But, that approach was discussed, and I think there was just no way to track the TE token usage or enforce it.

The way to do that would be to rfid all TEs (rares and URs included), then give a unique voucher for each day for that specific rfid. That seems incredibly tedious and will really mess up packs.

I don't think Rares would be necessary. Even if the rule were just CoA, which already has the chips, would help. Eventually maybe it could all be done electronically, matching the RFID to someone's badge for the convention or day.

That would, in a word, suck. A friend and I have split a CoA. We obviously make sure to schedule our runs so we don't overlap, which is easy enough, but it would seriously be annoying to have to schedule entirely different days to do runs to make sure we got to use our TEs.

I guess that kind of illustrates my point. Should two or more people be able to share TE tokens, using them on different runs when the others aren't on them, or should they have to get their own TE tokens (or even just CoA)? If the CoA were tied to a single player on a convention, where it couldn't be used unless that player were on the run, that would prevent situations like that, although it wouldn't stop a person from going into multiple pick-up games and loaning them out to different people each time.

Although, as was pointed out, maybe Jeff & Co. are OK with TE tokens being shared around with 2 or more people, or maybe they think it's just not workable to do anything about it. I thought there was something about it in the Jeff's Token Proclamations sub-forum, but I don't see anything there.

I have a group of about 30 players who LOVE the game but can't afford to play it and build their own characters.
I host them on runs at GenCon each year, adding 6-8 into my core group runs and suppliment them with token builds and treasure enhancers to offset the costs of $400ish per run to bring my 5 friends each time.

I could get the same amount of tokens by ghosting their five tickets and doing all my runs as double down with my crew but I prefer to game with my larger group of friends who can't otherwise play.

Locking my CoA tokens to only be usable by 1 person per day immediately stops me from ever hosting any of my friends; due to work schedules it takes 4 runs over the whole event to find times that most of them can skip away and join us. It's usually 2 runs in a day with 10 different people. That change immediately means I can't host 2 different runs on one day and costs probably 20 of my friends the ability to play with us.

It also means that my core crew of 5 don't pug any additional games. If I can't loan out CoA to players in a pug who don't cover them it cuts our group treasure by 10 per run and it's shitty for the random new players running with us to see the pile of treasure boosters I have to show to verify OUR pulls but I can't offer to help THEIRS.

This really seems like a solution looking for a problem.

I completely agree. Currently in pick up games, I help get all 10 players to walk away with more than 3 treasure. This change would make me sell off a number of TEs so that my part of the group gets tons of treasure and the other part of the group doesn’t.

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

NightGod wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

macxdmg wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

sarielv wrote: > When I loan them out whatever people get is theirs. It doesn't feel comfortable otherwise - just a shady feel to it.

On the other side of that, I was a little disgusted when a whale benefactor came up to me at the end of a run with his palm out and I had to inform him I had a full set of boosters of my own, so I didn't need his largesse.

The end of the run part of that is a bit confusing. Wouldn't you have told the Coach that you had your own TE tokens when the person was trying to loan them out to the group in the coaching room?

If the gentleman was looking for anything more than a handshake and there wasn't an agreement ahead of time, that is pretty presumptuous.

I agree. I don't have a problem with the person loaning the TE's to get a share of the treasure chips, but only if it's agreed to ahead of time very clearly, with no type of pressure or strong-arming.

It has always seemed to me like it was taking advantage of TD a bit for someone to get a set of 10 TE tokens and then jump into pick up group after pick up group to share their TE tokens with everyone and take a portion of everyone's treasure chips in each run. I'd actually like to see more restrictions on loaning TE tokens, like each one can't be used by more than one person per convention, or even just no more than one person per day. But, that approach was discussed, and I think there was just no way to track the TE token usage or enforce it.

The way to do that would be to rfid all TEs (rares and URs included), then give a unique voucher for each day for that specific rfid. That seems incredibly tedious and will really mess up packs.

I don't think Rares would be necessary. Even if the rule were just CoA, which already has the chips, would help. Eventually maybe it could all be done electronically, matching the RFID to someone's badge for the convention or day.

That would, in a word, suck. A friend and I have split a CoA. We obviously make sure to schedule our runs so we don't overlap, which is easy enough, but it would seriously be annoying to have to schedule entirely different days to do runs to make sure we got to use our TEs.

I guess that kind of illustrates my point. Should two or more people be able to share TE tokens, using them on different runs when the others aren't on them, or should they have to get their own TE tokens (or even just CoA)? If the CoA were tied to a single player on a convention, where it couldn't be used unless that player were on the run, that would prevent situations like that, although it wouldn't stop a person from going into multiple pick-up games and loaning them out to different people each time.

Although, as was pointed out, maybe Jeff & Co. are OK with TE tokens being shared around with 2 or more people, or maybe they think it's just not workable to do anything about it. I thought there was something about it in the Jeff's Token Proclamations sub-forum, but I don't see anything there.

I have a group of about 30 players who LOVE the game but can't afford to play it and build their own characters.
I host them on runs at GenCon each year, adding 6-8 into my core group runs and suppliment them with token builds and treasure enhancers to offset the costs of $400ish per run to bring my 5 friends each time.

I could get the same amount of tokens by ghosting their five tickets and doing all my runs as double down with my crew but I prefer to game with my larger group of friends who can't otherwise play.

Locking my CoA tokens to only be usable by 1 person per day immediately stops me from ever hosting any of my friends; due to work schedules it takes 4 runs over the whole event to find times that most of them can skip away and join us. It's usually 2 runs in a day with 10 different people. That change immediately means I can't host 2 different runs on one day and costs probably 20 of my friends the ability to play with us.

It also means that my core crew of 5 don't pug any additional games. If I can't loan out CoA to players in a pug who don't cover them it cuts our group treasure by 10 per run and it's shitty for the random new players running with us to see the pile of treasure boosters I have to show to verify OUR pulls but I can't offer to help THEIRS.

This really seems like a solution looking for a problem.

I completely agree. Currently in pick up games, I help get all 10 players to walk away with more than 3 treasure. This change would make me sell off a number of TEs so that my part of the group gets tons of treasure and the other part of the group doesn’t.

I'm not sure that your group getting more treasure than the other group is necessarily a bad thing. Maybe it would be a motivating factor for them to buy TE tokens so that they also got a pile of treasure chips. Plus - if the motivation is to not make them feel bad because they get fewer tokens, wouldn't the solution be to always give them all the bonus chips without a split so everyone is even? Otherwise, you might still be in a 30 TC to 10 TC situation, which is still quite a disparity.

Mike Steele wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

NightGod wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

macxdmg wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

sarielv wrote: > When I loan them out whatever people get is theirs. It doesn't feel comfortable otherwise - just a shady feel to it.

On the other side of that, I was a little disgusted when a whale benefactor came up to me at the end of a run with his palm out and I had to inform him I had a full set of boosters of my own, so I didn't need his largesse.

The end of the run part of that is a bit confusing. Wouldn't you have told the Coach that you had your own TE tokens when the person was trying to loan them out to the group in the coaching room?

If the gentleman was looking for anything more than a handshake and there wasn't an agreement ahead of time, that is pretty presumptuous.

I agree. I don't have a problem with the person loaning the TE's to get a share of the treasure chips, but only if it's agreed to ahead of time very clearly, with no type of pressure or strong-arming.

It has always seemed to me like it was taking advantage of TD a bit for someone to get a set of 10 TE tokens and then jump into pick up group after pick up group to share their TE tokens with everyone and take a portion of everyone's treasure chips in each run. I'd actually like to see more restrictions on loaning TE tokens, like each one can't be used by more than one person per convention, or even just no more than one person per day. But, that approach was discussed, and I think there was just no way to track the TE token usage or enforce it.

The way to do that would be to rfid all TEs (rares and URs included), then give a unique voucher for each day for that specific rfid. That seems incredibly tedious and will really mess up packs.

I don't think Rares would be necessary. Even if the rule were just CoA, which already has the chips, would help. Eventually maybe it could all be done electronically, matching the RFID to someone's badge for the convention or day.

That would, in a word, suck. A friend and I have split a CoA. We obviously make sure to schedule our runs so we don't overlap, which is easy enough, but it would seriously be annoying to have to schedule entirely different days to do runs to make sure we got to use our TEs.

I guess that kind of illustrates my point. Should two or more people be able to share TE tokens, using them on different runs when the others aren't on them, or should they have to get their own TE tokens (or even just CoA)? If the CoA were tied to a single player on a convention, where it couldn't be used unless that player were on the run, that would prevent situations like that, although it wouldn't stop a person from going into multiple pick-up games and loaning them out to different people each time.

Although, as was pointed out, maybe Jeff & Co. are OK with TE tokens being shared around with 2 or more people, or maybe they think it's just not workable to do anything about it. I thought there was something about it in the Jeff's Token Proclamations sub-forum, but I don't see anything there.

You can not share TEs for runs you are not on. The coaches know not to allow that. That is why there are also spot checks in epilogue just to stop this...and training room.

I don't think the coaches, epilogue, or training room can stop someone from sharing TE tokens for runs they are not on, if someone hands the TE tokens to someone else before they go into the Coaching Room. NightGod's post is a good example of that, it is two people sharing a CoA, and just making sure that they don't have runs at the same time.

I do agree with you that the current set-up should prevent someone from walking into a coaching room, showing their TE tokens to outfit one or more people in the group, and then walking out with their TE tokens.

It's the second situation (or any variation of it) that they are actively trying to prevent. If you use a TE, it has to physically be in your possession for the entire run. To my knowledge, there has never been an issue with sharing TEs, as long as you're carrying it in-hand and not overlapping your times.

I seem to remember there being an issue (or at least the perception of an issue) of people letting someone use a TE in the coaching room and then handing it off to someone sitting in another coaching room on their way into the dungeon, so the change was made to check both in the coaching room and at the treasure table.

a 30 10 disparity is a large split but it's caused by one player having $2500 in tokens and the other not having them.

The other option is a 20 v 3 split with the other player seeing MASSIVE disparity between their pulls and yours.

In most situations going from 3 pulls to 10 pulls at the cost of giving the loaning player 10 pulls is normally a win in the eyes of the player only getting 3 pulls.

Offering a split is honestly better for cultivating new long term players than giving free full treasure is.

I would have gotten 3 but this player loaned me an expensive token so I got 10 and he got 10.

I could have gotten 20 but I don't own the token he loaned me. I could get 20 if I owned that token.

I can buy a much less expensive token to jump from 3 treasure to 5 treasure and another slightly more expensive token to go from 5 to 7.


At that point you have a player who has experienced the boosted treasure pulls, potentially gotten excited to get extra tokens, who knows that he could get more if he owned his own copies of the tokens and knows there are less expensive tokens that guarantee him more treasure he can immediately buy.

If there's potential of this player becoming invested in the game you've given them a solid setup to do so.


If you loan the tokens with no split you're showing treasure as having little to no value.

I was going to get 3 but I got 20 and it didn't cost me anything.

I can spend several hundred dollars to guarantee 5 when I play but why do that when I can get 20 for free randomly when I play with other people

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: a 30 10 disparity is a large split but it's caused by one player having $2500 in tokens and the other not having them.

The other option is a 20 v 3 split with the other player seeing MASSIVE disparity between their pulls and yours.

In most situations going from 3 pulls to 10 pulls at the cost of giving the loaning player 10 pulls is normally a win in the eyes of the player only getting 3 pulls.

Offering a split is honestly better for cultivating new long term players than giving free full treasure is.

I would have gotten 3 but this player loaned me an expensive token so I got 10 and he got 10.

I could have gotten 20 but I don't own the token he loaned me. I could get 20 if I owned that token.

I can buy a much less expensive token to jump from 3 treasure to 5 treasure and another slightly more expensive token to go from 5 to 7.


At that point you have a player who has experienced the boosted treasure pulls, potentially gotten excited to get extra tokens, who knows that he could get more if he owned his own copies of the tokens and knows there are less expensive tokens that guarantee him more treasure he can immediately buy.

If there's potential of this player becoming invested in the game you've given them a solid setup to do so.


If you loan the tokens with no split you're showing treasure as having little to no value.

I was going to get 3 but I got 20 and it didn't cost me anything.

I can spend several hundred dollars to guarantee 5 when I play but why do that when I can get 20 for free randomly when I play with other people

Sure. Whatever you think that other people think. This is just plan silly. We cannot know what other people may think with hypothetical situations. You can know what you do in hypothetical. You can know what other people did in specific situations.

jedibcg Banjo 5150 Lover wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: a 30 10 disparity is a large split but it's caused by one player having $2500 in tokens and the other not having them.

The other option is a 20 v 3 split with the other player seeing MASSIVE disparity between their pulls and yours.

In most situations going from 3 pulls to 10 pulls at the cost of giving the loaning player 10 pulls is normally a win in the eyes of the player only getting 3 pulls.

Offering a split is honestly better for cultivating new long term players than giving free full treasure is.

I would have gotten 3 but this player loaned me an expensive token so I got 10 and he got 10.

I could have gotten 20 but I don't own the token he loaned me. I could get 20 if I owned that token.

I can buy a much less expensive token to jump from 3 treasure to 5 treasure and another slightly more expensive token to go from 5 to 7.


At that point you have a player who has experienced the boosted treasure pulls, potentially gotten excited to get extra tokens, who knows that he could get more if he owned his own copies of the tokens and knows there are less expensive tokens that guarantee him more treasure he can immediately buy.

If there's potential of this player becoming invested in the game you've given them a solid setup to do so.


If you loan the tokens with no split you're showing treasure as having little to no value.

I was going to get 3 but I got 20 and it didn't cost me anything.

I can spend several hundred dollars to guarantee 5 when I play but why do that when I can get 20 for free randomly when I play with other people

Sure. Whatever you think that other people think. This is just plan silly. We cannot know what other people may think with hypothetical situations. You can know what you do in hypothetical. You can know what other people did in specific situations.

It also stands on the concept that “I paid $2500, so I am owed to share my token” which is a fallacy. Your ownership of tokens only means you can share them, it doesn’t mean you’re owed for sharing them.

Actually the hoarder that has two CoA that expects returns for his/her TEs being lent out might be the person Mike was talking about. By that person hoarding the CoAs and being rewarded for it there is less reason to put the CoA on the market. Without it on the market that new person “that got ten which is better than three” cannot actually get the 20 without the grace of someone lending out the TE.

Guedoji wrote: This isn't directly related to TEs, but a word of caution for everyone from personal experience around loaning tokens.

While loaning tokens seems nice, in the early days I was often geared out with higher level tokens by vets that joined the runs. Vets joining pugs and decking out players to the point that people are killing monsters in one shot, or one round in normal difficulty is not a good thing. When monsters go down before people are able to attack, be attacked, or even understand what happened, it actually hurts the experience more than it helps. Initially I didn't understand why anyone needed tokens, it was just all too easy.

Players don't want to sit around for 5-6 minutes after the monster is killed. This is akin to vets coming in and answering the puzzle they have already done. There is no danger involved if someone is just going to solve it.

I tend to gear out for survivability on hardcore so that they newer players can get the rarer token. That's about my only goal there.

macxdmg wrote:

jedibcg Banjo 5150 Lover wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: a 30 10 disparity is a large split but it's caused by one player having $2500 in tokens and the other not having them.

The other option is a 20 v 3 split with the other player seeing MASSIVE disparity between their pulls and yours.

In most situations going from 3 pulls to 10 pulls at the cost of giving the loaning player 10 pulls is normally a win in the eyes of the player only getting 3 pulls.

Offering a split is honestly better for cultivating new long term players than giving free full treasure is.

I would have gotten 3 but this player loaned me an expensive token so I got 10 and he got 10.

I could have gotten 20 but I don't own the token he loaned me. I could get 20 if I owned that token.

I can buy a much less expensive token to jump from 3 treasure to 5 treasure and another slightly more expensive token to go from 5 to 7.


At that point you have a player who has experienced the boosted treasure pulls, potentially gotten excited to get extra tokens, who knows that he could get more if he owned his own copies of the tokens and knows there are less expensive tokens that guarantee him more treasure he can immediately buy.

If there's potential of this player becoming invested in the game you've given them a solid setup to do so.


If you loan the tokens with no split you're showing treasure as having little to no value.

I was going to get 3 but I got 20 and it didn't cost me anything.

I can spend several hundred dollars to guarantee 5 when I play but why do that when I can get 20 for free randomly when I play with other people

Sure. Whatever you think that other people think. This is just plan silly. We cannot know what other people may think with hypothetical situations. You can know what you do in hypothetical. You can know what other people did in specific situations.

It also stands on the concept that “I paid $2500, so I am owed to share my token” which is a fallacy. Your ownership of tokens only means you can share them, it doesn’t mean you’re owed for sharing them.

Actually the hoarder that has two CoA that expects returns for his/her TEs being lent out might be the person Mike was talking about. By that person hoarding the CoAs and being rewarded for it there is less reason to put the CoA on the market. Without it on the market that new person “that got ten which is better than three” cannot actually get the 20 without the grace of someone lending out the TE.

This is also a fallacy. The market may be small, but it isn’t so small that this setup is keeping all of the CoAs out of the market. It isn’t even creeping the CoA price up noticeably. It costed about $1300 secondary market to craft it in 2015 and costs that to buy it now.

I think it's best to leave this on a group by group basis. Many of these PUG groups do one or two runs a year and aren't active on the forums. Which removes a large voice on the matter. I know I have offered treasure splits in the past. If they say no, I don't press things.

I've been in the epilogue room many times where someone who spit treasure pulled an UR/relic on one of their extra pulls were super excited and thanked me. I don't wheel and deal to try and trade for the token. It's probably one of their Gencon highlights. Some of those groups I keep in touch with and they ask to run again in future years. Clearly the experience has been a positive one for those groups.

Just a suggestion...

If you do a split, do it in one of the 3x combinations so there is no animosity there. Let the youngling enjoy the draws and pocket your gold draws for later when there isn’t the risk of pressure. This will be how I will do it so I don’t have a need to “compare” with them and they get total pleasure from the pulls without seeing what happened in my pulls.

Most of this is being a good citizen and the more they have the thrill the more likely they will seek out TEs and the engine of this continues to expand. Give them a taste without them seeing your taste.

If TA wants to hold and guarantee my tokens for 2 hours, I'm fine with that.

If not, I agree, no Bueno.

I am a loaner, for a split. If some don't like it, I respect that opinion. I disagree, and feel it helped me get to where I could help others. I hope it doesn't cost me friends, but I may never know.

Which is better is a theoretical exercise at best.

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote: If TA wants to hold and guarantee my tokens for 2 hours, I'm fine with that.

If not, I agree, no Bueno.

I am a loaner, for a split. If some don't like it, I respect that opinion. I disagree, and feel it helped me get to where I could help others. I hope it doesn't cost me friends, but I may never know.

Which is better is a theoretical exercise at best.

I agree, if TA wants to hold several thousands of dollars on tons of runs throughout the weekend and replace any losses they are responsible for, I’m fine with that too.