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TOPIC: Treasure Inflation

Treasure Inflation 3 years 6 months ago #205

NightGod wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

macxdmg wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

sarielv wrote: > When I loan them out whatever people get is theirs. It doesn't feel comfortable otherwise - just a shady feel to it.

On the other side of that, I was a little disgusted when a whale benefactor came up to me at the end of a run with his palm out and I had to inform him I had a full set of boosters of my own, so I didn't need his largesse.


The end of the run part of that is a bit confusing. Wouldn't you have told the Coach that you had your own TE tokens when the person was trying to loan them out to the group in the coaching room?


If the gentleman was looking for anything more than a handshake and there wasn't an agreement ahead of time, that is pretty presumptuous.


I agree. I don't have a problem with the person loaning the TE's to get a share of the treasure chips, but only if it's agreed to ahead of time very clearly, with no type of pressure or strong-arming.

It has always seemed to me like it was taking advantage of TD a bit for someone to get a set of 10 TE tokens and then jump into pick up group after pick up group to share their TE tokens with everyone and take a portion of everyone's treasure chips in each run. I'd actually like to see more restrictions on loaning TE tokens, like each one can't be used by more than one person per convention, or even just no more than one person per day. But, that approach was discussed, and I think there was just no way to track the TE token usage or enforce it.


The way to do that would be to rfid all TEs (rares and URs included), then give a unique voucher for each day for that specific rfid. That seems incredibly tedious and will really mess up packs.


I don't think Rares would be necessary. Even if the rule were just CoA, which already has the chips, would help. Eventually maybe it could all be done electronically, matching the RFID to someone's badge for the convention or day.

That would, in a word, suck. A friend and I have split a CoA. We obviously make sure to schedule our runs so we don't overlap, which is easy enough, but it would seriously be annoying to have to schedule entirely different days to do runs to make sure we got to use our TEs.


I guess that kind of illustrates my point. Should two or more people be able to share TE tokens, using them on different runs when the others aren't on them, or should they have to get their own TE tokens (or even just CoA)? If the CoA were tied to a single player on a convention, where it couldn't be used unless that player were on the run, that would prevent situations like that, although it wouldn't stop a person from going into multiple pick-up games and loaning them out to different people each time.

Although, as was pointed out, maybe Jeff & Co. are OK with TE tokens being shared around with 2 or more people, or maybe they think it's just not workable to do anything about it. I thought there was something about it in the Jeff's Token Proclamations sub-forum, but I don't see anything there.

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Treasure Inflation 3 years 6 months ago #206

Mike Steele wrote:

NightGod wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

macxdmg wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

sarielv wrote: > When I loan them out whatever people get is theirs. It doesn't feel comfortable otherwise - just a shady feel to it.

On the other side of that, I was a little disgusted when a whale benefactor came up to me at the end of a run with his palm out and I had to inform him I had a full set of boosters of my own, so I didn't need his largesse.


The end of the run part of that is a bit confusing. Wouldn't you have told the Coach that you had your own TE tokens when the person was trying to loan them out to the group in the coaching room?


If the gentleman was looking for anything more than a handshake and there wasn't an agreement ahead of time, that is pretty presumptuous.


I agree. I don't have a problem with the person loaning the TE's to get a share of the treasure chips, but only if it's agreed to ahead of time very clearly, with no type of pressure or strong-arming.

It has always seemed to me like it was taking advantage of TD a bit for someone to get a set of 10 TE tokens and then jump into pick up group after pick up group to share their TE tokens with everyone and take a portion of everyone's treasure chips in each run. I'd actually like to see more restrictions on loaning TE tokens, like each one can't be used by more than one person per convention, or even just no more than one person per day. But, that approach was discussed, and I think there was just no way to track the TE token usage or enforce it.


The way to do that would be to rfid all TEs (rares and URs included), then give a unique voucher for each day for that specific rfid. That seems incredibly tedious and will really mess up packs.


I don't think Rares would be necessary. Even if the rule were just CoA, which already has the chips, would help. Eventually maybe it could all be done electronically, matching the RFID to someone's badge for the convention or day.

That would, in a word, suck. A friend and I have split a CoA. We obviously make sure to schedule our runs so we don't overlap, which is easy enough, but it would seriously be annoying to have to schedule entirely different days to do runs to make sure we got to use our TEs.


I guess that kind of illustrates my point. Should two or more people be able to share TE tokens, using them on different runs when the others aren't on them, or should they have to get their own TE tokens (or even just CoA)? If the CoA were tied to a single player on a convention, where it couldn't be used unless that player were on the run, that would prevent situations like that, although it wouldn't stop a person from going into multiple pick-up games and loaning them out to different people each time.

Although, as was pointed out, maybe Jeff & Co. are OK with TE tokens being shared around with 2 or more people, or maybe they think it's just not workable to do anything about it. I thought there was something about it in the Jeff's Token Proclamations sub-forum, but I don't see anything there.

You can not share TEs for runs you are not on. The coaches know not to allow that. That is why there are also spot checks in epilogue just to stop this...and training room.

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Treasure Inflation 3 years 6 months ago #207

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

NightGod wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

macxdmg wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

sarielv wrote: > When I loan them out whatever people get is theirs. It doesn't feel comfortable otherwise - just a shady feel to it.

On the other side of that, I was a little disgusted when a whale benefactor came up to me at the end of a run with his palm out and I had to inform him I had a full set of boosters of my own, so I didn't need his largesse.


The end of the run part of that is a bit confusing. Wouldn't you have told the Coach that you had your own TE tokens when the person was trying to loan them out to the group in the coaching room?


If the gentleman was looking for anything more than a handshake and there wasn't an agreement ahead of time, that is pretty presumptuous.


I agree. I don't have a problem with the person loaning the TE's to get a share of the treasure chips, but only if it's agreed to ahead of time very clearly, with no type of pressure or strong-arming.

It has always seemed to me like it was taking advantage of TD a bit for someone to get a set of 10 TE tokens and then jump into pick up group after pick up group to share their TE tokens with everyone and take a portion of everyone's treasure chips in each run. I'd actually like to see more restrictions on loaning TE tokens, like each one can't be used by more than one person per convention, or even just no more than one person per day. But, that approach was discussed, and I think there was just no way to track the TE token usage or enforce it.


The way to do that would be to rfid all TEs (rares and URs included), then give a unique voucher for each day for that specific rfid. That seems incredibly tedious and will really mess up packs.


I don't think Rares would be necessary. Even if the rule were just CoA, which already has the chips, would help. Eventually maybe it could all be done electronically, matching the RFID to someone's badge for the convention or day.

That would, in a word, suck. A friend and I have split a CoA. We obviously make sure to schedule our runs so we don't overlap, which is easy enough, but it would seriously be annoying to have to schedule entirely different days to do runs to make sure we got to use our TEs.


I guess that kind of illustrates my point. Should two or more people be able to share TE tokens, using them on different runs when the others aren't on them, or should they have to get their own TE tokens (or even just CoA)? If the CoA were tied to a single player on a convention, where it couldn't be used unless that player were on the run, that would prevent situations like that, although it wouldn't stop a person from going into multiple pick-up games and loaning them out to different people each time.

Although, as was pointed out, maybe Jeff & Co. are OK with TE tokens being shared around with 2 or more people, or maybe they think it's just not workable to do anything about it. I thought there was something about it in the Jeff's Token Proclamations sub-forum, but I don't see anything there.

You can not share TEs for runs you are not on. The coaches know not to allow that. That is why there are also spot checks in epilogue just to stop this...and training room.


I don't think the coaches, epilogue, or training room can stop someone from sharing TE tokens for runs they are not on, if someone hands the TE tokens to someone else before they go into the Coaching Room. NightGod's post is a good example of that, it is two people sharing a CoA, and just making sure that they don't have runs at the same time.

I do agree with you that the current set-up should prevent someone from walking into a coaching room, showing their TE tokens to outfit one or more people in the group, and then walking out with their TE tokens.

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Last edit: by Mike Steele.

Treasure Inflation 3 years 6 months ago #208

I agree the current setup works. However, I do think there is a significant process improvement that could happen...

Thanks Fiddy for the inspiration with the thingy you are making

Create a 3D print of a “tray” Where each player “slots in” their TEs to the coach, the tray is then sealed and tagged with a simple sticker for the time of the run...it is then walked to the epilogue room...

...doing this, the epilogue speed dramatically increases as the verification can be done thoroughly prior to the team’s arrive 96 minutes later
Jamie
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Updated 5/22/2023
CHECK OUT THE TOKENS FOR SALE
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=61&id=252721#397741


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Treasure Inflation 3 years 6 months ago #209

Harlax wrote: Or you could rely on coaches to do what I do. When ever token loaning conversations start, inform everyone that its perfectly ok to accept or decline such offers.

I have never had to call a coach coordinator (thats who we call, not ACs) in this sort of situation.


Mike Steele has the issue that if a person who has invested in 10 CoA pugs every run, they “cheat” the token maximum if they barter with folks to get extra pulls from the runs from the TEs they lend out. I don’t think it is an issue, it is the same to TPTB if 210 tokens are pulled if they all go to separate individuals or the same person. There are ghosting rules to prevent single person experiences from being the norm, and thus tokens going entirely to one person. I believe that is more from the prospect of wanting to share the experience not prevention of token hoarding. I believe last minute whole run buys happen late at night on nights where there are fewer people at conventions. I have no data to prove this one way or the other, but if I own a thing to sell, and it comes down to $800 or $80 I know what I’m going to take if I have the same resources allocated for it already. A bunch of DMs need hotel space, hotels aren’t free, these plastic toys I’ve printed either need to go back in the truck or can go forth with someone else. Please know I do not have the ghosting rules memorized, 5 ghosts was a thing one, and this post will likely become aged as all internet things do..
--
macXdmg
Monk of the Painda Order
Bard of the College of Sick Beats

Trade thread truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=61&id=253064#406060

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Treasure Inflation 3 years 6 months ago #210

Jamie Campbell wrote: I agree the current setup works. However, I do think there is a significant process improvement that could happen...

Thanks Fiddy for the inspiration with the thingy you are making

Create a 3D print of a “tray” Where each player “slots in” their TEs to the coach, the tray is then sealed and tagged with a simple sticker for the time of the run...it is then walked to the epilogue room...

...doing this, the epilogue speed dramatically increases as the verification can be done thoroughly prior to the team’s arrive 96 minutes later


This idea does not scale for the future. This idea is also problematic for pug runs.

Taking tokens from people, will prevent me from loaning for the run to people who are unknown to me. I’m sure you could make “loaner from x” tokens, or “loaner to y” to stack with tokens, it seems like a huge risk for TA.
--
macXdmg
Monk of the Painda Order
Bard of the College of Sick Beats

Trade thread truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=61&id=253064#406060

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Treasure Inflation 3 years 6 months ago #211

macxdmg wrote:

Harlax wrote: Or you could rely on coaches to do what I do. When ever token loaning conversations start, inform everyone that its perfectly ok to accept or decline such offers.

I have never had to call a coach coordinator (thats who we call, not ACs) in this sort of situation.


Mike Steele has the issue that if a person who has invested in 10 CoA pugs every run, they “cheat” the token maximum if they barter with folks to get extra pulls from the runs from the TEs they lend out. I don’t think it is an issue, it is the same to TPTB if 210 tokens are pulled if they all go to separate individuals or the same person. There are ghosting rules to prevent single person experiences from being the norm, and thus tokens going entirely to one person. I believe that is more from the prospect of wanting to share the experience not prevention of token hoarding. I believe last minute whole run buys happen late at night on nights where there are fewer people at conventions. I have no data to prove this one way or the other, but if I own a thing to sell, and it comes down to $800 or $80 I know what I’m going to take if I have the same resources allocated for it already. A bunch of DMs need hotel space, hotels aren’t free, these plastic toys I’ve printed either need to go back in the truck or can go forth with someone else. Please know I do not have the ghosting rules memorized, 5 ghosts was a thing one, and this post will likely become aged as all internet things do..


To be clear, I don't have a problem with people getting a share of the treasure coins if they loan TE tokens to someone on a run. I was just saying that using the 10 sets of TE tokens in PUG after PUG, no matter how the bonus tokens are divided, seems to me to take advantage of the system a bit. That's just my opinion, and obviously if TPTB don't have a problem with it, it's not a problem.

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Last edit: by Mike Steele.

Treasure Inflation 3 years 6 months ago #212

Jamie Campbell wrote: I agree the current setup works. However, I do think there is a significant process improvement that could happen...

Thanks Fiddy for the inspiration with the thingy you are making

Create a 3D print of a “tray” Where each player “slots in” their TEs to the coach, the tray is then sealed and tagged with a simple sticker for the time of the run...it is then walked to the epilogue room...

...doing this, the epilogue speed dramatically increases as the verification can be done thoroughly prior to the team’s arrive 96 minutes later


If you think I am going to hand over 13 THOUSAND dollars in tokens to another person for 2 hours any hope nothing goes wrong in the process you are HIGH

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Treasure Inflation 3 years 6 months ago #213

Mike Steele wrote:

macxdmg wrote:

Harlax wrote: Or you could rely on coaches to do what I do. When ever token loaning conversations start, inform everyone that its perfectly ok to accept or decline such offers.

I have never had to call a coach coordinator (thats who we call, not ACs) in this sort of situation.


Mike Steele has the issue that if a person who has invested in 10 CoA pugs every run, they “cheat” the token maximum if they barter with folks to get extra pulls from the runs from the TEs they lend out. I don’t think it is an issue, it is the same to TPTB if 210 tokens are pulled if they all go to separate individuals or the same person. There are ghosting rules to prevent single person experiences from being the norm, and thus tokens going entirely to one person. I believe that is more from the prospect of wanting to share the experience not prevention of token hoarding. I believe last minute whole run buys happen late at night on nights where there are fewer people at conventions. I have no data to prove this one way or the other, but if I own a thing to sell, and it comes down to $800 or $80 I know what I’m going to take if I have the same resources allocated for it already. A bunch of DMs need hotel space, hotels aren’t free, these plastic toys I’ve printed either need to go back in the truck or can go forth with someone else. Please know I do not have the ghosting rules memorized, 5 ghosts was a thing one, and this post will likely become aged as all internet things do..


To be clear, I don't have a problem with people getting a share of the treasure coins if they loan TE tokens to someone on a run. I was just saying that using the 10 sets of TE tokens in PUG after PUG, no matter how the bonus tokens are divided, seems to me to take advantage of the system a bit. That's just my opinion, and obviously if TPTB don't have a problem with it, it's not a problem.


If you are actually running on all of those runs and physically present for each one how exactly is that taking advantage of the system?

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Treasure Inflation 3 years 6 months ago #214

I read through a bit of the posts, but I haven't honestly read through them all as I got a bit lost in the mix. To me it sounds like there are two issues.

1. The Rarity of treasure is declining for anything above rare.

2. There are players that seem to be causing issues by automatically assuming they are lending TEs and getting a cut without a discussion.

It was my believe that the treasure was mixed based on the total volume, so there is always a specific percentage for UR, Legendaries, Relics, etc. If that is not the case, maybe TPTB might benefit from a yearly evaluation of treasure pulls similar to the Spreadsheet we as players help populate each year, along with somebody on their side reviewing the remaining treasure to see what was left as I am 100% sure not all treasure is being recorded on the spreadsheet we voluntarily fill out, and I have seen multiple URs & 25k bars pulled but not recorded.

When it comes to sharing TE, unless TD wants to invest in a more tedious process that is more work on them and potential put some players off. It is easy enough to say if you dont have the TE on you for a party member for the duration of the run including epilogue, you dont get the treasure. I dont see any issue with 2 or more players sharing a CoA as long as long as no more than 1 person benefits for the duration of a run, including any overlapping run times. If one person uses it in the morning there shouldn't be something to stop some body using it later that evening, 1100~1200 is not a small price to pay especially when you start adding policies and stipulations. I for one would much rather focus on the toxic behaviors of players that assume they are getting treasure from other players without a conversation. I have extra AoTF,ISSN, & ISGNs I lend out to friends and new players I occasionally ask for a pull or two to help me round out my pulls to get the 50xpull bags, but usually I dont even ask for that. While not the only experiences involving TE & "loaning", I had 2 bad experiences with a specific player during Coaching trying to get me and a friend to use his TE and give him a cut, but when we declined and explained the situation he got very passive aggressive and later acted grossly towards us during the run, during the epilogue of one of the rooms, he "forgot" and demanded, not asked, treasure pulls from my friend who just went on their first run.

Since it was mentioned, below is the Ghosting Rule #7 which specifically relates to TE. I have ghosted twice due to a last minute dropout, and while I think it is worthwhile to make sure TD gets the money they need to keep thriving, I very much dislike when people buy out full runs with the intent to ghost it at cons that sellout in less than an hour like Gen Con. Normally when I have extra tickets I try and find friends who haven't ran before or I think might enjoy the experience, sometimes that means they hand everything over to me and go on about their way but in some cases I hook a new player.


Even though the maximum number of Ghost
characters on a run is nine, no more than five
Ghost characters may receive any tangible bonus.
All Ghost characters can equip TEs if they wish,
but only five Ghost characters receive any
TREASURE CHIPS, token bags, completion tokens,
or other real-world items.
Example 1: If one person buys out the slot of all
10 tickets, five of the Ghost characters can have a
number entered in the Total Treasure calls on the
Party Card, but four are left blank. The real
player’s TE bonus is, of course, that of the actual
solo player. Synergistic TEs on non-eligible
Ghosts count towards the synergy bonus on the
eligible Ghosts. E.g., if someone solos the
dungeon with 10 CHARMS OF AVARICE, only five
Ghosts get TREASURE CHIPS, but the COA bonus
for those five Ghosts is at its max.
Example 2: The party consists of five real players
and five Ghost players. In this case, all 10
characters can have a number entered into Total
Treasure on the Party Card.

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Treasure Inflation 3 years 6 months ago #215

Mike Steele wrote:

NightGod wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

macxdmg wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

sarielv wrote: > When I loan them out whatever people get is theirs. It doesn't feel comfortable otherwise - just a shady feel to it.

On the other side of that, I was a little disgusted when a whale benefactor came up to me at the end of a run with his palm out and I had to inform him I had a full set of boosters of my own, so I didn't need his largesse.


The end of the run part of that is a bit confusing. Wouldn't you have told the Coach that you had your own TE tokens when the person was trying to loan them out to the group in the coaching room?


If the gentleman was looking for anything more than a handshake and there wasn't an agreement ahead of time, that is pretty presumptuous.


I agree. I don't have a problem with the person loaning the TE's to get a share of the treasure chips, but only if it's agreed to ahead of time very clearly, with no type of pressure or strong-arming.

It has always seemed to me like it was taking advantage of TD a bit for someone to get a set of 10 TE tokens and then jump into pick up group after pick up group to share their TE tokens with everyone and take a portion of everyone's treasure chips in each run. I'd actually like to see more restrictions on loaning TE tokens, like each one can't be used by more than one person per convention, or even just no more than one person per day. But, that approach was discussed, and I think there was just no way to track the TE token usage or enforce it.


The way to do that would be to rfid all TEs (rares and URs included), then give a unique voucher for each day for that specific rfid. That seems incredibly tedious and will really mess up packs.


I don't think Rares would be necessary. Even if the rule were just CoA, which already has the chips, would help. Eventually maybe it could all be done electronically, matching the RFID to someone's badge for the convention or day.

That would, in a word, suck. A friend and I have split a CoA. We obviously make sure to schedule our runs so we don't overlap, which is easy enough, but it would seriously be annoying to have to schedule entirely different days to do runs to make sure we got to use our TEs.


I guess that kind of illustrates my point. Should two or more people be able to share TE tokens, using them on different runs when the others aren't on them, or should they have to get their own TE tokens (or even just CoA)? If the CoA were tied to a single player on a convention, where it couldn't be used unless that player were on the run, that would prevent situations like that, although it wouldn't stop a person from going into multiple pick-up games and loaning them out to different people each time.

Although, as was pointed out, maybe Jeff & Co. are OK with TE tokens being shared around with 2 or more people, or maybe they think it's just not workable to do anything about it. I thought there was something about it in the Jeff's Token Proclamations sub-forum, but I don't see anything there.


I have a group of about 30 players who LOVE the game but can't afford to play it and build their own characters.
I host them on runs at GenCon each year, adding 6-8 into my core group runs and suppliment them with token builds and treasure enhancers to offset the costs of $400ish per run to bring my 5 friends each time.

I could get the same amount of tokens by ghosting their five tickets and doing all my runs as double down with my crew but I prefer to game with my larger group of friends who can't otherwise play.

Locking my CoA tokens to only be usable by 1 person per day immediately stops me from ever hosting any of my friends; due to work schedules it takes 4 runs over the whole event to find times that most of them can skip away and join us. It's usually 2 runs in a day with 10 different people. That change immediately means I can't host 2 different runs on one day and costs probably 20 of my friends the ability to play with us.

It also means that my core crew of 5 don't pug any additional games. If I can't loan out CoA to players in a pug who don't cover them it cuts our group treasure by 10 per run and it's shitty for the random new players running with us to see the pile of treasure boosters I have to show to verify OUR pulls but I can't offer to help THEIRS.

This really seems like a solution looking for a problem.

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Treasure Inflation 3 years 6 months ago #216

Tiaolang wrote: 2. There are players that seem to be causing issues by automatically assuming they are lending TEs and getting a cut without a discussion.

Though we know this happens because we have a few people saying so over the years, I think this is a very rare occurrence or we would hear about it more often. Not saying anything should or shouldn't be done about it, just want it clear that it is a large issue. Bad actors are bad actors.

Tiaolang wrote: It was my believe that the treasure was mixed based on the total volume, so there is always a specific percentage for UR, Legendaries, Relics, etc. If that is not the case, maybe TPTB might benefit from a yearly evaluation of treasure pulls similar to the Spreadsheet we as players help populate each year, along with somebody on their side reviewing the remaining treasure to see what was left as I am 100% sure not all treasure is being recorded on the spreadsheet we voluntarily fill out, and I have seen multiple URs & 25k bars pulled but not recorded.

From what little we know there are percentage for the totally treasure pool. Those percentages change from year to year and have only been relayed to us once (or twice) in the past as to what Jeff wanted the mix to be. That was several years ago and has changed since then (there were no relic or legendaries at the time).

As far as the spreadsheet of course 'big' stuff is pulled out that is not recorded, at the same time pulls without anything are also not recorded. Overall the spreadsheet gives us a good idea of what is in the pool though not exact numbers.
You either discover a star or you don't. You arrogant punk.

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