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TOPIC: Treasure Inflation

Treasure Inflation 3 months 3 weeks ago #121

Jamie Campbell wrote:

Fred K wrote:

Jamie Campbell wrote: I will say, I am disappointed with the notion of inflation. My group’s hope was that we could buy CoAs and then “work” for the rest. With the draw of UR drops down so badly, we quickly realized “working” for it wasn’t efficient even though between us we were doing 100 draws a run...as a result, we joined the ranks of auction buying to achieve.

Know this, whether you like or not, the current CoA was the method to stop pay to play...but with the mix changes, we unwound the effect and are right back to pay to play. Meaning, to get tokens you must buy them from 8Ks or secondary market if older.

I can say We as a group made some choices:
If we found UR at 1% draws...then we had no problem spending 5 people running and buy all the dungeons. Even so far as we were going to play nightmare and gruel through it instead of playing a ton of normals...(not fun)
The drop rate was not even close to 1%

So, now that we see from our runs that 1D100 doesn’t work on treasure draws...we had to reassess

It made sense to us in the beginning...$250 bought you 30 packs and 1UR choice...$58x5=$290...we thought we would see 1 UR.


1% UR's is probably a good rate for those draws from treasure boxes. It would match what the web site says for 10 packs. New players don't really get the distinction between 10 packs and the treasure box. We had this in the past but it has dropped to less than half of that now. Getting a UR from 10 packs is still cheaper than via runs at 1% of the draws (there aren't runs at $20 per slot where you could apply 21 draws and take 5 slots for $100 invested). Your cheapest runs are probably closer to $45 per slot meaning $225 per UR minus the value of everything else drawn (usually somewhat negligible).

It really does seem to make sense to have more than 1 draw box the more everyone discusses it.
1 box for draws of UC, Rares, relics, URs, and legendaries.
1 box for monster bits, trade goods, map fragments, gold bars, and other random odds and ends.

The second box should cost more to draw (some multiple of draws from the normal box) but not have a ton that is immediately usable for the average player. By comparison, the first box should be nothing but immediately usable draws (no treasure, bits, and even pull out gold if possible) just equipment, potion, scrolls, etc..

The confused and disappointed look from newer players drawing oil of enchantment then hearing it can't be used in-game says it all. The disappointed look from vets drawing 80 UCs and rares, 3 monster bits, and an enchanter's whetstone is as equally telling (it's "sigh, do I have time during the con to transmute this so I'm not carrying an extra 5# of tokens home...)

Fred


Fred,

I read this first part a few times. Getting 100 10 packs...$825. Now with $80*10...cost of full run...200 pulls...someone should see a UR making this 0.5%.

I used the pulls spreadsheet to get the idea of UR pull rates. I am responding on my phone, but the theory is this:

If I spend $580 (10 slots) and 20 pulls each...200 pulls...I would expect to see 2 URs to match up to what I would do with two $250 orders (60 10paks and 2UR choices)

I got an Oil of Enchantment...nice to get...

Gen Con Only UR+ percentages
2019 .30% on 7417 draws
2018 .41% on 5604 draws
2017 .64% on 9554 draws
2016 1.65% on 5507 draws
...thanks Jedi posting

So...in the end...I think the idea they have done is to make it such that a full run of CoA. One draw WILL be the UR. (Probabilities of course)

But this means simply the spend doesn’t match up. $250 for a UR. Or $580 for same UR. ..and other things sure and “fun”. But not at 2x the price


I Would say your logic and your math have flaws in all of this.
If all’s you want to do is collect then yes by all means just buy packs but if you want to break down the game you are forgetting the entertainment cost. An escape room in NWI cost 25$ an hour with some going to 35$ so if you factor in that you are in the actual dungeon for 84 mins at 25$ am hour let’s call it 37$ on top of the 8$ pack that they give you and a completion token of unknown value so with no treasure draw you are sitting on 45$ plus a completion token. I would say it’s all in a good spot even this year with the diminished treasure box.
Also I don’t think you can say you are upset that it’s not play to win if you have a CoA because just owning that means you paid to win because with the amount that you spent on one charm you could have outfitted all ten players for hardcore even at vender prices. It’s your own decision to strive for a higher tier.

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Treasure Inflation 3 months 3 weeks ago #122

Miathan wrote: I have been loaned a CoA once and he asked for nothing in return but I honestly wouldn’t have had an issue if he asked for 5 of the treasure draws from it. Both parties make out on the low end I would have gotten 6 draws, why would I be mad at someone saying “hey do you want 6 extra treasure draws?” It’s a win win IMO
If someone wanted to try and profit from the run and buy a single ticket with hopes of loaning out the 9 other TEs I still think that’s too much of a gamble. So I don’t see anyone trying to do it but I would agree that going in with this intent would be shady it would still be beneficial to the 9 other people


First off the loaning and asking nothing in return is fine with me.

Buying your own extra tickets for ghosting is fine with me.

Generally tickets cost $68 or more going forward.
A max pull player gets 21 tokens per run for there ticket, ghost get 20 max.
A player farming new players gets 84 pulls for 1 ticket.
So I guess my main problem with it is that the vet is exploiting new players and the system for there own profit.

Currently I think this is the only way to make runs profitable consistently and while I’m not against profit, farming new players isn’t something I’m willing to do.

I’ll apologize for a somewhat clumsy response but hopefully this explanation makes since.

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Treasure Inflation 3 months 3 weeks ago #123

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Miathan wrote: I have been loaned a CoA once and he asked for nothing in return but I honestly wouldn’t have had an issue if he asked for 5 of the treasure draws from it. Both parties make out on the low end I would have gotten 6 draws, why would I be mad at someone saying “hey do you want 6 extra treasure draws?” It’s a win win IMO
If someone wanted to try and profit from the run and buy a single ticket with hopes of loaning out the 9 other TEs I still think that’s too much of a gamble. So I don’t see anyone trying to do it but I would agree that going in with this intent would be shady it would still be beneficial to the 9 other people


First off the loaning and asking nothing in return is fine with me.

Buying your own extra tickets for ghosting is fine with me.

Generally tickets cost $68 or more going forward.
A max pull player gets 21 tokens per run for there ticket, ghost get 20 max.
A player farming new players gets 84 pulls for 1 ticket.
So I guess my main problem with it is that the vet is exploiting new players and the system for there own profit.

Currently I think this is the only way to make runs profitable consistently and while I’m not against profit, farming new players isn’t something I’m willing to do.

I’ll apologize for a somewhat clumsy response but hopefully this explanation makes since.


I get what your saying a I can definitely see your side. I’m just stating how I would feel if it happened to me. I run with a group of 8 and if someone offered us max treasure so 15-17 mor tokens and asked for 6-7 in return I would feel that this is a win win IMO.
My other point was that I just can’t see this happening due to the gamble. If that person ran into my group I already have the IS for everyone and 5 CoA. So if they were looking for a profit running into my group would have been a miss.

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Treasure Inflation 3 months 3 weeks ago #124

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Miathan wrote: I have been loaned a CoA once and he asked for nothing in return but I honestly wouldn’t have had an issue if he asked for 5 of the treasure draws from it. Both parties make out on the low end I would have gotten 6 draws, why would I be mad at someone saying “hey do you want 6 extra treasure draws?” It’s a win win IMO
If someone wanted to try and profit from the run and buy a single ticket with hopes of loaning out the 9 other TEs I still think that’s too much of a gamble. So I don’t see anyone trying to do it but I would agree that going in with this intent would be shady it would still be beneficial to the 9 other people


First off the loaning and asking nothing in return is fine with me.

Buying your own extra tickets for ghosting is fine with me.

Generally tickets cost $68 or more going forward.
A max pull player gets 21 tokens per run for there ticket, ghost get 20 max.
A player farming new players gets 84 pulls for 1 ticket.
So I guess my main problem with it is that the vet is exploiting new players and the system for there own profit.

Currently I think this is the only way to make runs profitable consistently and while I’m not against profit, farming new players isn’t something I’m willing to do.

I’ll apologize for a somewhat clumsy response but hopefully this explanation makes since.


I see no problem with it, so long as it’s a win-win. That said, I don’t do it.

I’m trading down some COAs for COGFs for loaning purposes, and I’m only doing that to ensure I don’t lose out on two TCs. Because, frankly, I’ve been feeling kind of exploited myself, loaning out tokens worth half a new Prius to people who feel entitled to a return on my investment and 95% of the time don’t even say thank you.
barkley.neo.rr.com -->see my trade thread HERE , my eBay store HERE or my web store HERE
"Ceci n'est pas une pipe" - Magritte

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Last edit: by Brad Mortensen.

Treasure Inflation 3 months 3 weeks ago #125

Miathan wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Miathan wrote: I have been loaned a CoA once and he asked for nothing in return but I honestly wouldn’t have had an issue if he asked for 5 of the treasure draws from it. Both parties make out on the low end I would have gotten 6 draws, why would I be mad at someone saying “hey do you want 6 extra treasure draws?” It’s a win win IMO
If someone wanted to try and profit from the run and buy a single ticket with hopes of loaning out the 9 other TEs I still think that’s too much of a gamble. So I don’t see anyone trying to do it but I would agree that going in with this intent would be shady it would still be beneficial to the 9 other people


First off the loaning and asking nothing in return is fine with me.

Buying your own extra tickets for ghosting is fine with me.

Generally tickets cost $68 or more going forward.
A max pull player gets 21 tokens per run for there ticket, ghost get 20 max.
A player farming new players gets 84 pulls for 1 ticket.
So I guess my main problem with it is that the vet is exploiting new players and the system for there own profit.

Currently I think this is the only way to make runs profitable consistently and while I’m not against profit, farming new players isn’t something I’m willing to do.

I’ll apologize for a somewhat clumsy response but hopefully this explanation makes since.


I get what your saying a I can definitely see your side. I’m just stating how I would feel if it happened to me. I run with a group of 8 and if someone offered us max treasure so 15-17 mor tokens and asked for 6-7 in return I would feel that this is a win win IMO.
My other point was that I just can’t see this happening due to the gamble. If that person ran into my group I already have the IS for everyone and 5 CoA. So if they were looking for a profit running into my group would have been a miss.


At origens, gencon, and GHC it’s not as good a strategy as it is at the PAX cons. I’m pretty sure you could just buy random tickets to runs at pax south that have 9 tickets already sold and land in groups with mostly new players at close to a 90% rate. The other cons probably a 70% rate.
Good enough it could be done effectively enough to make it worth your time.

And I agree that most new players see giving up half there extra pulls as fair.

If I didn’t feel that the farming of new players was unethical, then I would pick up 10 CoA and do this strategy myself.

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Treasure Inflation 3 months 3 weeks ago #126

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Miathan wrote: I have been loaned a CoA once and he asked for nothing in return but I honestly wouldn’t have had an issue if he asked for 5 of the treasure draws from it. Both parties make out on the low end I would have gotten 6 draws, why would I be mad at someone saying “hey do you want 6 extra treasure draws?” It’s a win win IMO
If someone wanted to try and profit from the run and buy a single ticket with hopes of loaning out the 9 other TEs I still think that’s too much of a gamble. So I don’t see anyone trying to do it but I would agree that going in with this intent would be shady it would still be beneficial to the 9 other people


First off the loaning and asking nothing in return is fine with me.

Buying your own extra tickets for ghosting is fine with me.

Generally tickets cost $68 or more going forward.
A max pull player gets 21 tokens per run for there ticket, ghost get 20 max.
A player farming new players gets 84 pulls for 1 ticket.
So I guess my main problem with it is that the vet is exploiting new players and the system for there own profit.

Currently I think this is the only way to make runs profitable consistently and while I’m not against profit, farming new players isn’t something I’m willing to do.

I’ll apologize for a somewhat clumsy response but hopefully this explanation makes since.


I see no problem with it, so long as it’s a win-win. That said, I don’t do it.

I’m trading down some COAs for COGFs for loaning purposes, and I’m only doing that to ensure I don’t lose out on two TCs. Because, frankly, I’ve been feeling kind of exploited myself, loaning out tokens worth half a new Prius to people who feel entitled to a return on my investment and 95% of the time don’t even say thank you.


My guess is most groups of new players have no idea how much you are helping them out. I’m sure if they did they would be more appositive.
That said I can’t blame you for downsizing either.

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Treasure Inflation 3 months 3 weeks ago #127

Wayne Rhodes wrote:
At origens, gencon, and GHC it’s not as good a strategy as it is at the PAX cons. I’m pretty sure you could just buy random tickets to runs at pax south that have 9 tickets already sold and land in groups with mostly new players at close to a 90% rate. The other cons probably a 70% rate.
Good enough it could be done effectively enough to make it worth your time.

And I agree that most new players see giving up half there extra pulls as fair.

If I didn’t feel that the farming of new players was unethical, then I would pick up 10 CoA and do this strategy myself.


I've seen this happen twice at PAX, once while I was a coach, and once while I was actually on the run. Both times, what made me uneasy is not the splitting of the loot with the new players, but the attitude of the person doing the loaning. The person I've seen do it comes in and doesn't even explain what's happening, just says something very blunt along the lines of "Listen to me, you'll get more loot, but you have to give me some". And on the run I was actually doing, the "loaner" actually seemed resentful that I had my own CoA. Wasn't a good look for TD. While the "loaner" had stepped away, I explained to the group that a) That guy was being obnoxious, b) It's still a win-win for them, and c) What the hell was going on.

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Treasure Inflation 3 months 3 weeks ago #128

Braxton wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:
At origens, gencon, and GHC it’s not as good a strategy as it is at the PAX cons. I’m pretty sure you could just buy random tickets to runs at pax south that have 9 tickets already sold and land in groups with mostly new players at close to a 90% rate. The other cons probably a 70% rate.
Good enough it could be done effectively enough to make it worth your time.

And I agree that most new players see giving up half there extra pulls as fair.

If I didn’t feel that the farming of new players was unethical, then I would pick up 10 CoA and do this strategy myself.


I've seen this happen twice at PAX, once while I was a coach, and once while I was actually on the run. Both times, what made me uneasy is not the splitting of the loot with the new players, but the attitude of the person doing the loaning. The person I've seen do it comes in and doesn't even explain what's happening, just says something very blunt along the lines of "Listen to me, you'll get more loot, but you have to give me some". And on the run I was actually doing, the "loaner" actually seemed resentful that I had my own CoA. Wasn't a good look for TD. While the "loaner" had stepped away, I explained to the group that a) That guy was being obnoxious, b) It's still a win-win for them, and c) What the hell was going on.


Might be the same person I ran into doing it a pax south, I might just feel this way about it partly because of the way he acted, but I think I have seen it on 4 or 5 runs since I have been playing, maybe more but it feels off to me no matter who is doing it.

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Treasure Inflation 3 months 3 weeks ago #129

Wayne Rhodes wrote: If I didn’t feel that the farming of new players was unethical, then I would pick up 10 CoA and do this strategy myself.


I don’t understand why it’s unethical. That suggests that vets are obligated to grant max treasure to newbies they run with out of the goodness of their hearts. The newbies get free loot with zero investment on their part. Are they really better off if you don’t lend them TEs?

Sure, they’re happier if they get to keep all the loot. Going forward, I’m happy to let them keep the four chips from a CoGF. I’m not keeping an additional $10k of tokens just so they get another 13 on top of that. YMMV

And I agree, attitude is important. Obnoxious people aren’t pleasant to be around. I hope I’m not coming across as obnoxious. I’m just trying to find a path to retiring sometime before I’m too old to enjoy it, and subsidizing ungrateful newbies isn’t going to do it.

And we are WAAAAY off topic
barkley.neo.rr.com -->see my trade thread HERE , my eBay store HERE or my web store HERE
"Ceci n'est pas une pipe" - Magritte

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Last edit: by Brad Mortensen.

Treasure Inflation 3 months 3 weeks ago #130

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote: If I didn’t feel that the farming of new players was unethical, then I would pick up 10 CoA and do this strategy myself.


I don’t understand why it’s unethical. That suggests that vets are obligated to grant max treasure to newbies they run with out of the goodness of their hearts. The newbies get free loot with zero investment on their part. Are they really better off if you don’t lend them TEs?

Sure, they’re happier if they get to keep all the loot. Going forward, I’m happy to let them keep the four chips from a CoGF. I’m not keeping an additional $10k of tokens just so they get another 13 on top of that. YMMV

And I agree, attitude is important. Obnoxious people aren’t pleasant to be around. I hope I’m not coming across as obnoxious. I’m just trying to find a path to retiring sometime before I’m too old to enjoy it, and subsidizing ungrateful newbies isn’t going to do it.


Brad, I'm curious, are you saying token farming is part of your plan to fund retirement?

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Treasure Inflation 3 months 3 weeks ago #131

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Brad Mortensen wrote: And I agree, attitude is important. Obnoxious people aren’t pleasant to be around. I hope I’m not coming across as obnoxious. I’m just trying to find a path to retiring sometime before I’m too old to enjoy it, and subsidizing ungrateful newbies isn’t going to do it.


+1
TD does seem to regularly attract somewhat over bearing personalities (PS. Brad, you are definitely not one of them. You are genuinely welcoming and fun to be around). I’m sure we’ve all seen that guy in coaching though. Personally I try to take a lesson from the occasional individuals whose behavior I doesn’t leave a good taste and make sure my own behavior doesn’t come across with the same way to others. I’m sure I haven’t always succeeded but it’s always worth being aware of how your actions may be perceived by others and making the effort.
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Treasure Inflation 3 months 3 weeks ago #132

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote: If I didn’t feel that the farming of new players was unethical, then I would pick up 10 CoA and do this strategy myself.


I don’t understand why it’s unethical. That suggests that vets are obligated to grant max treasure to newbies they run with out of the goodness of their hearts. The newbies get free loot with zero investment on their part. Are they really better off if you don’t lend them TEs?

Sure, they’re happier if they get to keep all the loot. Going forward, I’m happy to let them keep the four chips from a CoGF. I’m not keeping an additional $10k of tokens just so they get another 13 on top of that. YMMV

And I agree, attitude is important. Obnoxious people aren’t pleasant to be around. I hope I’m not coming across as obnoxious. I’m just trying to find a path to retiring sometime before I’m too old to enjoy it, and subsidizing ungrateful newbies isn’t going to do it.

And we are WAAAAY off topic


The other way to look at it is the newbies are subsidizing the farmer, because the farmer gets the token return of 4 runs with only investing in 1 ticket.

Extra pulls can go from $2.50 to $5 each, with $4 being the most common asking price. $3 Would probably be easy enough to get. So buy 1 ticket sale the extra pulls at $3 each, $68 dollar ticket gets you $252 in tokens. $168 profit per run
Do 10 runs like this at pax south $1,680 profit from runs.
This is just what I see.

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