TOPIC: Consistency of Focus Items

@Endgame - I think you’re agreeing with something I didn’t say

Brad Mortensen wrote: @Endgame - I think you’re agreeing with something I didn’t say

Rereading, you only want to bake in the poly damage for the staff, and leave everything else as is?

I would disagree with that. Standardize, standardize, standardize. Focus = focus on all items with exactly the same effect - it makes coding more consistent and it makes the end user experience consistent.

If adding poly damage from older focus items is too much, remove the poly damage buff from the druid.

Endgame wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: @Endgame - I think you’re agreeing with something I didn’t say

Rereading, you only want to bake in the poly damage for the staff, and leave everything else as is?

I would disagree with that. Standardize, standardize, standardize. Focus = focus on all items with exactly the same effect - it makes coding more consistent and it makes the end user experience consistent.

If adding poly damage from older focus items is too much, remove the poly damage buff from the druid.

Standardize - going forward.

I think nerfing text on existing tokens should be reserved for pretty extreme situations, not where the text on each token is Crystal clear on what it does and the reason is only standardization.

I would agree with you if the tokens just said "focus" and the differences were the text in tokendb.com.

Mike Steele wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: @Endgame - I think you’re agreeing with something I didn’t say

Rereading, you only want to bake in the poly damage for the staff, and leave everything else as is?

I would disagree with that. Standardize, standardize, standardize. Focus = focus on all items with exactly the same effect - it makes coding more consistent and it makes the end user experience consistent.

If adding poly damage from older focus items is too much, remove the poly damage buff from the druid.

Standardize - going forward.

I think nerfing text on existing tokens should be reserved for pretty extreme situations, not where the text on each token is Crystal clear on what it does and the reason is only standardization.

My proposal - all focus items add X to damage, healing, and poly damage. This involves 0 nerfs to any exist token that I'm aware of.

Standardizing going forward still sucks for the existing tokens AND the build apps. The best solution is to back port the changes to the older tokens (this has precedent as I understand, such as ring of stunning fist) .

Endgame wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: @Endgame - I think you’re agreeing with something I didn’t say

Rereading, you only want to bake in the poly damage for the staff, and leave everything else as is?

I would disagree with that. Standardize, standardize, standardize. Focus = focus on all items with exactly the same effect - it makes coding more consistent and it makes the end user experience consistent.

If adding poly damage from older focus items is too much, remove the poly damage buff from the druid.

Standardize - going forward.

I think nerfing text on existing tokens should be reserved for pretty extreme situations, not where the text on each token is Crystal clear on what it does and the reason is only standardization.

My proposal - all focus items add X to damage, healing, and poly damage. This involves 0 nerfs to any exist token that I'm aware of.

Standardizing going forward still sucks for the existing tokens AND the build apps. The best solution is to back port the changes to the older tokens (this has precedent as I understand, such as ring of stunning fist) .

Your proposal would result in tokens where the very clear text on the tokens is incorrect, which I'd think would create a lot more confusion than it fixes.

I don't recall anyone (or any build programs) having any problem understanding or incorporating the existing tokens as written. I'm not sure the current state "sucks" for anyone.

I can't imagine the build programs have any problem incorporating the tokens as they are, each is Crystal clear as to what bonuses it provides.

Finally, perhaps there are differences on the tokens on purpose.

Since everyone else is repeating themselves a half dozen times, and to be clear, my proposal is:

Text on tokens trumps rules, as always. So no reason to errata old things. It starts calls for trade-ins and confuses everyone.

First choice;
Focus = bonus to spell damage and healing. Period.

Second choice:
Focus = bonus to spell damage, healing, polymorph damage, and turning.

Polymorph already gets melee bonuses. Because of that, any +X weapon grants +X to poly damage, because the damage bonus is backed into the damage wheel so doesn’t otherwise get reflected on the party card. Or, we could say that only focus weapons grant poly damage bonuses. I don’t care.

If you want to say poly damage gets the greater of melee damage bonus OR focus, I’d be okay with that. Getting both has always fried my grits.

The “as is” situation as Endgame and Mike support is one that NEVER made sense to me, and I’ve always hated it.

I can say it four more times, if you like.

Ralph Waldo Emerson said, “a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.” While I’m not opposite consistency, I don’t think we have to be a slave to it, either.

Peace out

Here is why its important:

SELECT modifiers FROM tbl_abilities WHERE keyword = 'focus';

This should return the same thing for:
Medallion of focus
Lenses of focus
Baton of focus
Ring of focus
Staff of focus

This is not the case.

Thinking like code makes things consistent. Consistency is paramount... if you really want different effects for different tokens, use different keywords.

Mike Steele wrote: Your proposal would result in tokens where the very clear text on the tokens is incorrect, which I'd think would create a lot more confusion than it fixes.

How do people manage this for tokens like the 2011 Ring of Stunning Fist?

Endgame wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Your proposal would result in tokens where the very clear text on the tokens is incorrect, which I'd think would create a lot more confusion than it fixes.

How do people manage this for tokens like the 2011 Ring of Stunning Fist?

Ring of Stunning Fist was changed because the class card was changed and Dazing/Stunning Fist work differently than they did before. No class card or game rule has changed that would prompt a widespread change to how Focus items work.

That being said, I'm in favor of words meaning the same thing when they are used in the game. It makes it easier for players to understand the game. As such I wish "of Focus" items had been printed to all mean exactly the same thing... but thats just not the game True Dungeon is. There are lots of little inconsistencies like this through out the game rules and the tokens.

Endgame wrote: Here is why its important:

SELECT modifiers FROM tbl_abilities WHERE keyword = 'focus';

This should return the same thing for:
Medallion of focus
Lenses of focus
Baton of focus
Ring of focus
Staff of focus

This is not the case.

Thinking like code makes things consistent. Consistency is paramount... if you really want different effects for different tokens, use different keywords.

I agree with you going forward. That said I also agree with Brad in that I don't think its practical/worth it to changes things retroactively. Again I agree with you going forward, but I think we already sacrifice to much on the alter of consistency. Not saying that's the case here, just that its something to think about as not everyone finds it a convincing argument anymore.

Endgame wrote: Here is why its important:

SELECT modifiers FROM tbl_abilities WHERE keyword = 'focus';

This should return the same thing for:
Medallion of focus
Lenses of focus
Baton of focus
Ring of focus
Staff of focus

This is not the case.

Thinking like code makes things consistent. Consistency is paramount... if you really want different effects for different tokens, use different keywords.

Except:

• There is no tbl_abilities in the database
• There is no database
• "Focus" is not a keyword

If the class lists are different for the items, why should they provide the same effect? Maybe (as pointed out) they are different on purpose?

Just because the names are similar, doesn't mean that there is some keyword effect in operation. Having tokens with similar names can mean:

• Type of token (Hat, Helm, Boots, ...)
• Part of a set (Might, Redoubt, Cabal, ...)
• Keyword like you seem to intend (Throwing, Smiting)
• Flavor (Arcane, Bone Desert, Dune Stalker, ...)
• Multiple things (Armor - gets used both to indicate items in the torso slot as well as sometimes tokens in other slots that provide AC)
• Inconsistent things (Drow - sometimes flavor, sometimes +1 hp when you hit, Bliss - sometimes flavor, sometimes +3 to damage in Bliss)

(not claiming I got all those 100% in the right category, just illustrating)

Maybe it would help to think of Focus tokens as having some combination of spell damage, healing, and polymorph bonuses. Looked at that way, they all fit the Focus definition.