TOPIC: Orion's Belt

Druegar wrote:

Joshua Long wrote: I thought rogues' sneak attack damage does not get multiplied unless you have Night Shade's short sword or Viper Strike set.

OrionW wrote: The Assassin's crossbow is also on the list of items that work, as it does not require a natural 20.
tokendb.com/token/2-assassins-crossbow/

+2 Assassin's Crossbow (by itself) does not multiply Sneak Attack damage.
from the PHB:
Note: The +15 (+20 at 5th level) damage bonus from a sneak attack is not subject to doubling on a critical hit, unless Nightshade's +2 Short Sword or a Viper Strike fang under the influence of the Viper Strike Set bonus is used. (If a Viper Strike fang is used while not under the Viper Strike set effect, the extra damage is not doubled.)

You beat me to this, Thank you!

To segway back to Orion's Belt this is why equipping this on my Rogue Build is out of the question for now, it will take out my Viper Strike Bonus as I wear the Kilt and I'm about to make the Sneak Necklace at GC. As others have brought up many top tier players are not going to swap out Legendary Belts...yet.

That's what makes this a must get, I think down the road a lot of minds may be changed on it.

JACKOFTRADZE wrote: This one day may Transmute into a Legendary for all we know. Even if it doesn't it's a dual expander in one slot, that's really great!

Haha, next year, Legendary Recipe Fragments! Orion's Belt required in the recipe of course

Jeff321 wrote:

JACKOFTRADZE wrote: This one day may Transmute into a Legendary for all we know. Even if it doesn't it's a dual expander in one slot, that's really great!

Haha, next year, Legendary Recipe Fragments! Orion's Belt required in the recipe of course

Shhhh don't tell everyone. It will devalue all the Orion Belts I am making to sell to folks.

Druegar wrote:

Joshua Long wrote: I thought rogues' sneak attack damage does not get multiplied unless you have Night Shade's short sword or Viper Strike set.

OrionW wrote: The Assassin's crossbow is also on the list of items that work, as it does not require a natural 20.
tokendb.com/token/2-assassins-crossbow/

+2 Assassin's Crossbow (by itself) does not multiply Sneak Attack damage.
from the PHB:
Note: The +15 (+20 at 5th level) damage bonus from a sneak attack is not subject to doubling on a critical hit, unless Nightshade's +2 Short Sword or a Viper Strike fang under the influence of the Viper Strike Set bonus is used. (If a Viper Strike fang is used while not under the Viper Strike set effect, the extra damage is not doubled.)

I stand corrected... though to be honest I misread the original post. I thought the question was about the weapon and +dmg which is tripled on a 17+ using the legendary. Thanks for the correction. The relevant damage gap between the two classes remains unchanged.

JACKOFTRADZE wrote:

Druegar wrote:

Joshua Long wrote: I thought rogues' sneak attack damage does not get multiplied unless you have Night Shade's short sword or Viper Strike set.

OrionW wrote: The Assassin's crossbow is also on the list of items that work, as it does not require a natural 20.
tokendb.com/token/2-assassins-crossbow/

+2 Assassin's Crossbow (by itself) does not multiply Sneak Attack damage.
from the PHB:
Note: The +15 (+20 at 5th level) damage bonus from a sneak attack is not subject to doubling on a critical hit, unless Nightshade's +2 Short Sword or a Viper Strike fang under the influence of the Viper Strike Set bonus is used. (If a Viper Strike fang is used while not under the Viper Strike set effect, the extra damage is not doubled.)

You beat me to this, Thank you!

To segway back to Orion's Belt this is why equipping this on my Rogue Build is out of the question for now, it will take out my Viper Strike Bonus as I wear the Kilt and I'm about to make the Sneak Necklace at GC. As others have brought up many top tier players are not going to swap out Legendary Belts...yet.

That's what makes this a must get, I think down the road a lot of minds may be changed on it.

The ranged rogue, using the assassin's crossbow, is analogous in power to the melee rogue. You end up being able to do +/- 10% of the same overall damage.

For a viper melee rogue, you are likely still better off doing viper but it's close. The main reason is you really want the bracers that ensure you get a sneak attack. Because of that, you would be limited to 3 charms (likely CoA, CoAS, and charm of broaching). Adding another charm and two ioun stones is pretty significant. You give up 20 damage on sneak (it won't double on a crit without the viper set). In exchange, you get Draco-Lich (+3 damage) as your charm. Ioun stones you may already have 7 (amethyst ovoid, garnet cube, onyx cube, infernal fire, silver nugget, gold nugget, topaz trilliant.) Until next year, your best additions are charming cabochon (+4 hp), quicksilver cube (+2 dex), Tanzanite cube (+2 saves), and Sapphire Prism (+1 saves, +1 AC). You aren't making up that damage difference (assuming a crit) with any 3 items directly.

For a nightshade melee rogue, it means losing surturs' essentially -3.5 damage and -3.5 to hit. That amount of damage is easily made up with draco-lich and anything that gives you 1 more damage (thinking in terms of trading out other slots used for saves, etc). Orion's is better here.

In general, if you have more good ioun stones directly tied to your build than you can use - the belt is BiS right now for everyone but a viper melee rogue. You would likely give up 1 point of damage but get exchange for it of things like +3 or +4 to all your saves.

Next year, it's much tougher to decide. The arcane belt will be big for casters. I'm not sure which combination will be best there.

Fred

Fred K wrote:

JACKOFTRADZE wrote:

Druegar wrote:

Joshua Long wrote: I thought rogues' sneak attack damage does not get multiplied unless you have Night Shade's short sword or Viper Strike set.

OrionW wrote: The Assassin's crossbow is also on the list of items that work, as it does not require a natural 20.
tokendb.com/token/2-assassins-crossbow/

+2 Assassin's Crossbow (by itself) does not multiply Sneak Attack damage.
from the PHB:
Note: The +15 (+20 at 5th level) damage bonus from a sneak attack is not subject to doubling on a critical hit, unless Nightshade's +2 Short Sword or a Viper Strike fang under the influence of the Viper Strike Set bonus is used. (If a Viper Strike fang is used while not under the Viper Strike set effect, the extra damage is not doubled.)

You beat me to this, Thank you!

To segway back to Orion's Belt this is why equipping this on my Rogue Build is out of the question for now, it will take out my Viper Strike Bonus as I wear the Kilt and I'm about to make the Sneak Necklace at GC. As others have brought up many top tier players are not going to swap out Legendary Belts...yet.

That's what makes this a must get, I think down the road a lot of minds may be changed on it.

The ranged rogue, using the assassin's crossbow, is analogous in power to the melee rogue. You end up being able to do +/- 10% of the same overall damage.

For a viper melee rogue, you are likely still better off doing viper but it's close. The main reason is you really want the bracers that ensure you get a sneak attack. Because of that, you would be limited to 3 charms (likely CoA, CoAS, and charm of broaching). Adding another charm and two ioun stones is pretty significant. You give up 20 damage on sneak (it won't double on a crit without the viper set). In exchange, you get Draco-Lich (+3 damage) as your charm. Ioun stones you may already have 7 (amethyst ovoid, garnet cube, onyx cube, infernal fire, silver nugget, gold nugget, topaz trilliant.) Until next year, your best additions are charming cabochon (+4 hp), quicksilver cube (+2 dex), Tanzanite cube (+2 saves), and Sapphire Prism (+1 saves, +1 AC). You aren't making up that damage difference (assuming a crit) with any 3 items directly.

For a nightshade melee rogue, it means losing surturs' essentially -3.5 damage and -3.5 to hit. That amount of damage is easily made up with draco-lich and anything that gives you 1 more damage (thinking in terms of trading out other slots used for saves, etc). Orion's is better here.

In general, if you have more good ioun stones directly tied to your build than you can use - the belt is BiS right now for everyone but a viper melee rogue. You would likely give up 1 point of damage but get exchange for it of things like +3 or +4 to all your saves.

Next year, it's much tougher to decide. The arcane belt will be big for casters. I'm not sure which combination will be best there.

Fred

Draco litch is +2 damage, not +3, right? I

Endgame wrote:
Draco litch is +2 damage, not +3, right? I

You are correct

you are right, should have said +2 so a 1.5 pt difference in the second scenario....

Endgame wrote:

Rob F wrote: I have no problem with the transmute cost on this one. It's perfect. It should include the Fragments and Bits, as it's a special Token and it's a Relic so the other trade goods are fine. I really hope Jeff doesn't pay attention to posts lobbying for a change in the recipe on this one. This one should be all his. If someone thinks the costs outweigh the power level then I say just don't make it.

But this one's a gamble. All it will take is a Legendary Stone or Arcanum Charm or something and then all of a sudden the people that thought the power level wasn't right will be scrambling to acquire more of them or lobbying for a reprint or more expander options.

I think its only a matter of time for this one to be legendary level powerful. The first 2 drafts of the Arcanum items were Charm and Ioun Stone, so I expect the both slots to eventually get arcanum items (hopefully instead of slotless).

Also, with Orion's Belt and 2 Arcane slot expanders, I hope we never again see people complaining that a draft UR needs to change to a non charm / non Ioun Stone slot because the slots are tight.

Not everyone uses slot expanders. Also, in a couple years, new players wont have them.

Why wouldn't new players have them? Based on Jeff's comments, it sounds like a big emphasis is being placed on helping new players - I'd guess that these would go into a routine reprint schedule likely faster than we've seen in the past (possibly every 3-4 years or quicker).

Fred

Fred K wrote: Why wouldn't new players have them? Based on Jeff's comments, it sounds like a big emphasis is being placed on helping new players - I'd guess that these would go into a routine reprint schedule likely faster than we've seen in the past (possibly every 3-4 years or quicker).

Fred

Depending on how "new players" are being defined?

Unless we start having some Rare slot expanders (which I actually think we could do, maybe in 2021?), I would suspect very few "new players" are likely to have slot expanders. There are so many other things to target at UR+ level first. So by the time someone picks up a slot expander, they are probably a veteran player and no longer a new player.

Or at least that is one potential way of looking at it.

Fiddy wrote:

Fred K wrote: Why wouldn't new players have them? Based on Jeff's comments, it sounds like a big emphasis is being placed on helping new players - I'd guess that these would go into a routine reprint schedule likely faster than we've seen in the past (possibly every 3-4 years or quicker).

Fred

Depending on how "new players" are being defined?

Unless we start having some Rare slot expanders (which I actually think we could do, maybe in 2021?), I would suspect very few "new players" are likely to have slot expanders. There are so many other things to target at UR+ level first. So by the time someone picks up a slot expander, they are probably a veteran player and no longer a new player.

Or at least that is one potential way of looking at it.