TOPIC: Monster Trophies at Origins - Can we get an official response before Gen Con?

I think Chad is referring to the price of anything new, desired, and limited in amount, not MB specifically.

In the recipies, Brad is correct.

In general, the more limited something is, the more expensive it is to obtain. Greater Onyx Charms were $175-200 after GC last year. Now they go for 140 or less.

There are a LOT of people clamoring for beads and bits right now. The prices will be higher.

I agree with the idea of not changing the bead recipe, though if a change is made, I would like it to be made now. I don't think we should.

I would be in support of going back to bits or GP for the transmutes next year, or not. I kind of like the idea of making things more scarce, even enhanced and exalted.

Also, please keep the legendaries and relics soaking fleece. If the sky is falling, and everyone held onto more 2016-2018 than they need right now, we are going to need to do something with all those bits and not crazy the fleece market.

I paraphrase Druegar, "There will always, Always, ALWAYS be someone who is unhappy"

I cant imagine anyone who is unhappy feels anything other than justified in that emotion.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: There are 3 more cons worth of monster bits.
People are acting like the world is on fire.

Make some trades and stop wanting things handed to you. A little wheeling and dealing you will be able to get what you need. It won’t break the bank.
If you actually read what I posted and do it like that. It will help the community has a whole.

People aren't acting like the world is on fire. People are acting like a mistake was made that will negatively impact all players of the game by lowering the amount of monster bit tokens drawn from treasure this year due to not ordering the correct amount for the increase in overall treasure. This is a stated fact and people are looking for solutions to the issue.

I interpreted your post as a claim that everything you mentioned is a stated fact made by TD.

If that was your intention, I'd have to disagree.

TD has stated these facts: a mistake was made [that will lower] the percentage of monster bit tokens drawn from treasure.

Onto this stated fact, your post contains some opinions/interpretations, specifically that:
1. This will negatively impact all players of the game.
2. This is an "issue" that calls for a solution.

I believe for those following this thread, it's important to not confuse the issue by stating things as fact, and/or implying that TD has agreed with and stated things as fact that they have not done.


A few things to note for clarity:

1. You said this will "lower the amount of monster bit tokens drawn from treasure this year". It depends on what you mean by "amount." If you mean "the percentage" then that is correct.

However TD explicitly said they have the same number of bits this year as last year. The total number of bits in circulation should be about the same.

This is not a commentary on whether the changing percentage is good or bad, just attempting to clarify that the total number of monster bits drawn by all players should be about the same as last year.

2. You said "this will negatively impact all players of the game." I don't believe it will - in fact I believe it will help more than it harms.

People it helps:
- Players who don't care about monster bits and are looking for gear. At a guess this is a majority of players. I was in this condition for the first 5-6 years I played. Most players don't transmute. Almost all players use gear.

People it harms:
- Players who hoped to collect a certain number of monster bits with a certain number of pulls.

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: One more time: Spelled out more clearly
Me" hey I see you just finsihed a TD run. Did you have fun?"
New player "yes It was awesome"
Me" great did you do your treasure pulls"
NP: "yes, this is what I got"
Me: those are good, but see this is a monster bit. it is used in transmutes (then I explain the Bead how its the end of 4 year arc, it would cost them $ to get everything else). But I could trade you last years monster bit 2 DWP and 100 GP sculpture (figurine of dog)
or
2x50 GP Icewood Canteen, 2x200 GP equivalent(canteen)
These will get you a transmute item which will help you build your character(s) for your next run, where that 2019 monster bit will not.

almost everyone took me up on a some sort of trade (some just wanted a rare weapon or armor)

i made my trades more in their favor
A. because they were new
2. because they had what I wanted
d. it was just nice to welcome them to the game

I don't mean to derail the original intent of this thread further, especially because I want to be in "the know" about what happened to manage my treasure expectations going forward.

But this post resonates with me. This is how I got hooked.

My wife (girlfriend at the time) and her brothers invited me to join them for this "True Dungeon" thing. I honestly thought it sounded dumb, but gave it a shot anyway. I did two dungeons, had fun in one and promptly murdered myself (monk) with retribution damage in the other. This was back when treasure stamps existed and, since I died early, I didn't get any loot at the end.

After the run, I was put out that I died with no treasure and Lori came over. I had no idea who she was at the time. She reached into her pocket and pulled out a few rares and offered them to me. I think she gave me a Bracer of Smiting and a Defender Shield for a friend, and I was immediately cheered up. She then told me I should check with some of the veteran players to see if they had any tokens to trade.

After running back to my hotel room to get my previous run's treasure, I met with some friendly veteran players willing to trade. I traded my GP and monster bits, which I thought were worthless at the time, for some gear including a second bracer and some shurikens to deal with that pesky retribution damage fight.

I felt like I now had the player agency I was looking for by acquiring and equipping my character with these cool tokens.

I was pumped. I was ready to go back into the dungeon and kick some ass. I was hooked.

Friendly veterans making reasonable trades to help equip new players is a fantastic thing.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: There are 3 more cons worth of monster bits.
People are acting like the world is on fire.

Make some trades and stop wanting things handed to you. A little wheeling and dealing you will be able to get what you need. It won’t break the bank.
If you actually read what I posted and do it like that. It will help the community has a whole.

People aren't acting like the world is on fire. People are acting like a mistake was made that will negatively impact all players of the game by lowering the amount of monster bit tokens drawn from treasure this year due to not ordering the correct amount for the increase in overall treasure. This is a stated fact and people are looking for solutions to the issue.

I interpreted your post as a claim that everything you mentioned is a stated fact made by TD.

If that was your intention, I'd have to disagree.

TD has stated these facts: a mistake was made [that will lower] the percentage of monster bit tokens drawn from treasure.

Onto this stated fact, your post contains some opinions/interpretations, specifically that:
1. This will negatively impact all players of the game.
2. This is an "issue" that calls for a solution.

I believe for those following this thread, it's important to not confuse the issue by stating things as fact, and/or implying that TD has agreed with and stated things as fact that they have not done.


A few things to note for clarity:

1. You said this will "lower the amount of monster bit tokens drawn from treasure this year". It depends on what you mean by "amount." If you mean "the percentage" then that is correct.

However TD explicitly said they have the same number of bits this year as last year. The total number of bits in circulation should be about the same.

This is not a commentary on whether the changing percentage is good or bad, just attempting to clarify that the total number of monster bits drawn by all players should be about the same as last year.

2. You said "this will negatively impact all players of the game." I don't believe it will - in fact I believe it will help more than it harms.

People it helps:
- Players who don't care about monster bits and are looking for gear. At a guess this is a majority of players. I was in this condition for the first 5-6 years I played. Most players don't transmute. Almost all players use gear.

People it harms:
- Players who hoped to collect a certain number of monster bits with a certain number of pulls.

+1
side note..it will help new players even more if trading is done like I suggested

Brad Mortensen wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: FYI. Kirk had that price before the Origins even started. But nobody paid attention to that

Yes, that's correct. I had no idea there were going to be fewer 2019 trophies. What I did know about was my supply of 2016 and 2017 trophies being fairly limited compared to what I expect to be high demand for the new bead. In my case even now I'm thinking 2019 won't be my constraint, so I think the price doesn't need to change for me. Is the price too high? Maybe. But I'm confident if I set it much lower I'll move through them too quickly and in a year or two I'll be all out. One of my goals is to keep tokens in stock so that people know they can come to me for just about any token they want.

I was just trying to say you had that price before the con started. that you didnt know. I think some were implying you did that price after. I was trying to say you had that pre con. I dont think you are over or under price.

And all I’m saying is that a price two to three times the historical average is to me a big red flag.

I’m a free-marketeer, so people can charge whatever they want, as long as they aren’t defrauding anyone or scalping newbies.

Here’s my thought. If Jeff meant what he said literally, that he ordered the same number of bits as last year, then there’s going to be a shortage. E.g. if he ordered 150 of each last year for a total of 600, that’s only 100 of each this year. A lot get turned into Fleece and 3- and 4-stars, but that’s still a big hit, and there will be a lot of disappointment.

So let people substitute a 1k bar for two 2019s, once per Bead. That tweak to the recipe evens things out without altering the mix, and doesn’t hurt anyone who already made beads. People still have to get double the TCs to draw four, but that’s better than triple. Historically, a bit has been pegged at 300gp, so 500 would be more, but I think that’s a fair compromise.

If you don’t like the idea of changing the recipe at all, remember we already had one accidental change in the mix and a lot of people don’t like that either, and, as many have observed, there are no guarantees.

It’s a serious proposal but I don’t expect anyone to agree.

But Jeff did say this situation was a mistake, not intentional, and something like this seems to me like the easiest and most painless way to correct it

Except it is not historical price. Those come down after more hit the market. Origins was the first con. HISTORICALLY they are always high at first. Just like volunteer tokens.

Wrong, Chad. I was referring to at any pre-2018 recipe, where recipes included things like “one bit OR 300gp.” That exchange rate was decided by TDA, not the secondary market. You’re correct that players often trade at a different rate.

i didnt read the full thing. I was talking like volunteer tokens etc.

yes when the recipe says 1 monster bit or x GP...that rarely changes

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: One more time: Spelled out more clearly
Me" hey I see you just finsihed a TD run. Did you have fun?"
New player "yes It was awesome"
Me" great did you do your treasure pulls"
NP: "yes, this is what I got"
Me: those are good, but see this is a monster bit. it is used in transmutes (then I explain the Bead how its the end of 4 year arc, it would cost them $ to get everything else). But I could trade you last years monster bit 2 DWP and 100 GP sculpture (figurine of dog)
or
2x50 GP Icewood Canteen, 2x200 GP equivalent(canteen)
These will get you a transmute item which will help you build your character(s) for your next run, where that 2019 monster bit will not.

almost everyone took me up on a some sort of trade (some just wanted a rare weapon or armor)

i made my trades more in their favor
A. because they were new
2. because they had what I wanted
d. it was just nice to welcome them to the game

Is this done in the manner of vultures circling a sick animal, or more like a shark feeding frenzy where everyone pounces on the newbs after epilog?

I can think of very few things that would have been more off putting to my group than being mobbed for our treasure after our first run or two.

Not to say that newbs dealing with vets has to be a negative experience, but if it's how we are expected to hoover up bits for beads.... Well

Matthew Hayward wrote: 1. You said this will "lower the amount of monster bit tokens drawn from treasure this year". It depends on what you mean by "amount." If you mean "the percentage" then that is correct.

However TD explicitly said they have the same number of bits this year as last year. The total number of bits in circulation should be about the same.

This is not a commentary on whether the changing percentage is good or bad, just attempting to clarify that the total number of monster bits drawn by all players should be about the same as last year.

That only works under the assumption that the entire 2019 treasure pool will be drawn eventually - that's not necessarily a safe assumption to make.

Endgame wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: One more time: Spelled out more clearly
Me" hey I see you just finsihed a TD run. Did you have fun?"
New player "yes It was awesome"
Me" great did you do your treasure pulls"
NP: "yes, this is what I got"
Me: those are good, but see this is a monster bit. it is used in transmutes (then I explain the Bead how its the end of 4 year arc, it would cost them $ to get everything else). But I could trade you last years monster bit 2 DWP and 100 GP sculpture (figurine of dog)
or
2x50 GP Icewood Canteen, 2x200 GP equivalent(canteen)
These will get you a transmute item which will help you build your character(s) for your next run, where that 2019 monster bit will not.

almost everyone took me up on a some sort of trade (some just wanted a rare weapon or armor)

i made my trades more in their favor
A. because they were new
2. because they had what I wanted
d. it was just nice to welcome them to the game

Is this done in the manner of vultures circling a sick animal, or more like a shark feeding frenzy where everyone pounces on the newbs after epilog?

I can think of very few things that would have been more off putting to my group than being mobbed for our treasure after our first run or two.

Not to say that newbs dealing with vets has to be a negative experience, but if it's how we are expected to hoover up bits for beads.... Well

I was not going up to people. I had my tokens out sitting there. They actually approached me. I could tell they were on a run by the wristband.

another thing you can do is make a sign. looking to trade etc.

After you posted this, I could see people mobbing newbies. So I guess i should have said that, but some people would do it the way you said

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote:

Endgame wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: One more time: Spelled out more clearly
Me" hey I see you just finsihed a TD run. Did you have fun?"
New player "yes It was awesome"
Me" great did you do your treasure pulls"
NP: "yes, this is what I got"
Me: those are good, but see this is a monster bit. it is used in transmutes (then I explain the Bead how its the end of 4 year arc, it would cost them $ to get everything else). But I could trade you last years monster bit 2 DWP and 100 GP sculpture (figurine of dog)
or
2x50 GP Icewood Canteen, 2x200 GP equivalent(canteen)
These will get you a transmute item which will help you build your character(s) for your next run, where that 2019 monster bit will not.

almost everyone took me up on a some sort of trade (some just wanted a rare weapon or armor)

i made my trades more in their favor
A. because they were new
2. because they had what I wanted
d. it was just nice to welcome them to the game

Is this done in the manner of vultures circling a sick animal, or more like a shark feeding frenzy where everyone pounces on the newbs after epilog?

I can think of very few things that would have been more off putting to my group than being mobbed for our treasure after our first run or two.

Not to say that newbs dealing with vets has to be a negative experience, but if it's how we are expected to hoover up bits for beads.... Well

I was not going up to people. I had my tokens out sitting there. They actually approached me. I could tell they were on a run by the wristband.

another thing you can do is make a sign. looking to trade etc.

After you posted this, I could see people mobbing newbies. So I guess i should have said that, but some people would do it the way you said

There were some issues like this in 2013, AKA the year of the epic treasure box.

I hope if people are trading with new players for their monster ingredients and relic fragments, they take into account that those are both likely in the $15-$25 or more range this year (especially monster ingredients, since we don't yet know what the relic fragments do). Those are probably worth way more than just a rare or two. I'd hate for new players to make a trade like that, and then come onto the forums and see that the ingredient tokens they traded for a few dollars worth of rare tokens were worth significantly more than that.

I can understand everyone’s stances on the subject but I +1 Laz’s point that we just need to come together. There is still much of the 2019 season left and a small sample size of a small sample size of data recorded.

Remember for those that may have pulled poorly there are others who may have pulled great. Use our community and it’s reach and put it to good use.

I have made my beads for the year and will still be going to gencon and GHC. I’m looking to be part of the solution instead of adding to the pandemonium people can feel free to look me up.

Mike Steele wrote: I hope if people are trading with new players for their monster ingredients and relic fragments, they take into account that those are both likely in the $15-$25 or more range this year (especially monster ingredients, since we don't yet know what the relic fragments do). Those are probably worth way more than just a rare or two. I'd hate for new players to make a trade like that, and then come onto the forums and see that the ingredient tokens they traded for a few dollars worth of rare tokens were worth significantly more than that.

I think different players value different tokens differently. A rare token like a piece of a defender set, or pieces toward a transmute might be worth considerably more than a bit to a newer player, even if they are told of the "value"

We have no idea where bits are now, or where they will be by the Saturday of GenCon.

I think as long as traders are forthcoming about relative values, that's what is necessary. I think many on these forums would trade 5 rares for a 2019 bit, or more, at least if this thread is to be believed.