TOPIC: The balance between treasure and stats

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Azzy wrote: I guess I just don't completely buy into the whole idea that putting a cap on treasure draws will suddenly cause big time token buyers to stop buying new tokens.

I think Mike Steele's point (correct me if I'm wrong) is that almost everyone spends PYP money on at least one of each URTE. That's a lot of money. And a cap on treasure would reduce demand for the new TEs, and thus lower total sales. I'd set aside fewer URs for myself and sell more PYPs, which reduces overall demand.

I think there are two kinds of players. Those on unlimited budgets might be buying extra URTEs in addition to their regular orders. Those on a limited budget might be buying them instead of other URs they'd like. If (for example) 100 URTEs were sold one year, in another alternate universe where they didn't exist, would sales have been -100 URs? or would it have only been maybe -10 URs, because most people replaced it with something else? (Personally, I've recently migrated from the first group to the second.)

We'll never know for sure, because there's been a URTE in print every year since 2007 (except 2009-10). I guess Jeff could look at the second year they're in print and if there's a correlation between total sales vs URTE sales. But there are so many other variables. There was a lot of demand for the Hammer last year, and it might have made up for the Nuggets being in their second year. Or not. For the rest of us, it's pure conjecture.

For the record, I fall in the category of harping against constant rising treasure caps for years. And, I equip every cursed URTE that comes out, and I'm likely to continue to do so. With rising ticket prices, it's the only way I can afford to sponsor free newbie runs. So, rising caps help me introduce newbies to the game, but are bad for the game for many other reasons. They're probably getting close to net-negative benefit territory.

That's partly my point, that nearly everyone buys at least one new TE UR. But also, that people that buy extra tokens for investment buy a bunch of extras of each new TE UR. I know in my case, and I suspect in many others, that if there weren't new TE URs (and I'm counting both years they are available) available for order as PYPs, many people would buy fewer overall URs. And I do think that one of the reasons token sellers buy so many extra TE URs is that they so far haven't been reprinted, so they have a longer "shelf life" than many URs that have potential of being reprinted in a few years. I think, if TE URs move into the "likely reprint" category, fewer of each will be purchased.

That said - I would understand completely if TD did at some point want to stop printing new TE URs or put limits like a cap on total bonus treasure coins. Only TPTB have the data to know (or make an educated guess) if the benefits printing new TEs outweigh the costs.

To get people to continue to buy TE's while having a cap in place you just have to make the cap hard to reach. Set a cap and then make future TE's Relic's or Legendaries. Then have the ingredients for them be a bunch of non-TE UR's that have a treasure type feel. Maybe a +2 Gem encrusted sword, a +2 Diamond ring of protection, etc. Still useful in game too. 5 or 6 UR's to make that +4 TE Relic and so on. Would help slow peoples progression to the cap.

Rob F wrote: To get people to continue to buy TE's while having a cap in place you just have to make the cap hard to reach. Set a cap and then make future TE's Relic's or Legendaries. Then have the ingredients for them be a bunch of non-TE UR's that have a treasure type feel. Maybe a +2 Gem encrusted sword, a +2 Diamond ring of protection, etc. Still useful in game too. 5 or 6 UR's to make that +4 TE Relic and so on. Would help slow peoples progression to the cap.

So where would you put the cap?

Rob F wrote: To get people to continue to buy TE's while having a cap in place you just have to make the cap hard to reach. Set a cap and then make future TE's Relic's or Legendaries. Then have the ingredients for them be a bunch of non-TE UR's that have a treasure type feel. Maybe a +2 Gem encrusted sword, a +2 Diamond ring of protection, etc. Still useful in game too. 5 or 6 UR's to make that +4 TE Relic and so on. Would help slow peoples progression to the cap.

It seems like that would make it a lot harder for newer players to get TEs. I like having a TE always available as a PYP, even if it has to be a reprint.

From my perspective I will buy UR on the open market instead of tokens, for UR that I think are going to be cheaper IE people getting them randomly and not wanting them I will wait till the secondary market and try to save 10-15 bucks. Either way tokens are a cost and I can spend up to a 1k a year just on tokens for the hobby, I might actually spend closer to 1.5k a year but I do sell some tokens back that I speculated on, the point I am trying to make is that $$$ is a factor but for some people they just don't buy from TD they will buy on the open market where new players are more likely to buy from TD as well as big buyers. IE sell tokens, which can lower prices for components which in cause needs to raise component costs for new legendaries which drives a cycle. Treasure is the #1 off setting of that cycle where I can spend $100 on a pyp from a 3rd party and realize a specific amount of value from that token where it will pay for itself. A lot of other UR tokens can either accrue or decrease in values but treasure enhancers are always going to accrue unless they get replaced by something better. I get costs are costs and you can only raise ticket prices so much, and people are trying to expand the base. In the end would people run all treasure token characters, I think most people would if treasure wasn't capped like special runs or combat only runs. I like the idea of retro adventures or best of adventures that combine 2 old adventures and count as xp for both each year. Like 2 new runs where you get unlimited treasure and 1 retro run where tokens that can be used and limit the treasure. That way you can grow both sides of the business and bring in new people and still not upset the old base. I would love to see more retro adventures and would like to see one every year instead of 3 new dungeons make only 2 new and 1 retro or best of dungeons at gencon.

James J Krot wrote: From my perspective I will buy UR on the open market instead of tokens, for UR that I think are going to be cheaper IE people getting them randomly and not wanting them I will wait till the secondary market and try to save 10-15 bucks. Either way tokens are a cost and I can spend up to a 1k a year just on tokens for the hobby, I might actually spend closer to 1.5k a year but I do sell some tokens back that I speculated on, the point I am trying to make is that $$$ is a factor but for some people they just don't buy from TD they will buy on the open market where new players are more likely to buy from TD as well as big buyers. IE sell tokens, which can lower prices for components which in cause needs to raise component costs for new legendaries which drives a cycle. Treasure is the #1 off setting of that cycle where I can spend $100 on a pyp from a 3rd party and realize a specific amount of value from that token where it will pay for itself. A lot of other UR tokens can either accrue or decrease in values but treasure enhancers are always going to accrue unless they get replaced by something better. I get costs are costs and you can only raise ticket prices so much, and people are trying to expand the base. In the end would people run all treasure token characters, I think most people would if treasure wasn't capped like special runs or combat only runs. I like the idea of retro adventures or best of adventures that combine 2 old adventures and count as xp for both each year. Like 2 new runs where you get unlimited treasure and 1 retro run where tokens that can be used and limit the treasure. That way you can grow both sides of the business and bring in new people and still not upset the old base. I would love to see more retro adventures and would like to see one every year instead of 3 new dungeons make only 2 new and 1 retro or best of dungeons at gencon.

I guess my point is that, when you buy PYPs from a reseller you ARE buying from TD, just indirectly. I had a harder time than usual selling PYPs this year, for whatever reason, so I bought less from Jeff. Other people sold more PYPs than they expected, so they bought more from Jeff.

Even the random leftover URs you buy are a function of PYPs sold. (# of Randos = # of PYPs * 0.3) So fewer PYPs = proportionally fewer random URs available, at least until they start getting pulled out of loot boxes.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

James J Krot wrote: From my perspective I will buy UR on the open market instead of tokens, for UR that I think are going to be cheaper IE people getting them randomly and not wanting them I will wait till the secondary market and try to save 10-15 bucks. Either way tokens are a cost and I can spend up to a 1k a year just on tokens for the hobby, I might actually spend closer to 1.5k a year but I do sell some tokens back that I speculated on, the point I am trying to make is that $$$ is a factor but for some people they just don't buy from TD they will buy on the open market where new players are more likely to buy from TD as well as big buyers. IE sell tokens, which can lower prices for components which in cause needs to raise component costs for new legendaries which drives a cycle. Treasure is the #1 off setting of that cycle where I can spend $100 on a pyp from a 3rd party and realize a specific amount of value from that token where it will pay for itself. A lot of other UR tokens can either accrue or decrease in values but treasure enhancers are always going to accrue unless they get replaced by something better. I get costs are costs and you can only raise ticket prices so much, and people are trying to expand the base. In the end would people run all treasure token characters, I think most people would if treasure wasn't capped like special runs or combat only runs. I like the idea of retro adventures or best of adventures that combine 2 old adventures and count as xp for both each year. Like 2 new runs where you get unlimited treasure and 1 retro run where tokens that can be used and limit the treasure. That way you can grow both sides of the business and bring in new people and still not upset the old base. I would love to see more retro adventures and would like to see one every year instead of 3 new dungeons make only 2 new and 1 retro or best of dungeons at gencon.

I guess my point is that, when you buy PYPs from a reseller you ARE buying from TD, just indirectly. I had a harder time than usual selling PYPs this year, for whatever reason, so I bought less from Jeff. Other people sold more PYPs than they expected, so they bought more from Jeff.

Even the random leftover URs you buy are a function of PYPs sold. (# of Randos = # of PYPs * 0.3) So fewer PYPs = proportionally fewer random URs available, at least until they start getting pulled out of loot boxes.

I agree completely. I think PYP Purchases from people buying $8K packages translates pretty much directly to TD token sales, because if people weren't buying PYPs there would be a lot less $8K purchases.

James J Krot wrote: From my perspective I will buy UR on the open market instead of tokens, for UR that I think are going to be cheaper IE people getting them randomly and not wanting them I will wait till the secondary market and try to save 10-15 bucks. Either way tokens are a cost and I can spend up to a 1k a year just on tokens for the hobby, I might actually spend closer to 1.5k a year but I do sell some tokens back that I speculated on, the point I am trying to make is that $$$ is a factor but for some people they just don't buy from TD they will buy on the open market where new players are more likely to buy from TD as well as big buyers. IE sell tokens, which can lower prices for components which in cause needs to raise component costs for new legendaries which drives a cycle. Treasure is the #1 off setting of that cycle where I can spend $100 on a pyp from a 3rd party and realize a specific amount of value from that token where it will pay for itself. A lot of other UR tokens can either accrue or decrease in values but treasure enhancers are always going to accrue unless they get replaced by something better. I get costs are costs and you can only raise ticket prices so much, and people are trying to expand the base. In the end would people run all treasure token characters, I think most people would if treasure wasn't capped like special runs or combat only runs. I like the idea of retro adventures or best of adventures that combine 2 old adventures and count as xp for both each year. Like 2 new runs where you get unlimited treasure and 1 retro run where tokens that can be used and limit the treasure. That way you can grow both sides of the business and bring in new people and still not upset the old base. I would love to see more retro adventures and would like to see one every year instead of 3 new dungeons make only 2 new and 1 retro or best of dungeons at gencon.

Keep in mind that only the HoP and AoTF are on a "reserve, no reprint" list, and even at that the door is wide open for a functional AoTF reprint. If a TE UR is reprinted, that will drive the value of the old versions back to pretty close to PYP prices, unless there is some other factor (like the original version of RoR being an ingredient for CoA but the reprint not being one, or being worth much less in the recipe).

I'm not saying that's a negative thing, just that people shouldn't buy TE URs assuming that the value will continue to increase forever.

Harlax wrote:

Rob F wrote: To get people to continue to buy TE's while having a cap in place you just have to make the cap hard to reach. Set a cap and then make future TE's Relic's or Legendaries. Then have the ingredients for them be a bunch of non-TE UR's that have a treasure type feel. Maybe a +2 Gem encrusted sword, a +2 Diamond ring of protection, etc. Still useful in game too. 5 or 6 UR's to make that +4 TE Relic and so on. Would help slow peoples progression to the cap.

So where would you put the cap?

A treasure cap, like any other cap, would go on your head.

kurtreznor wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Rob F wrote: To get people to continue to buy TE's while having a cap in place you just have to make the cap hard to reach. Set a cap and then make future TE's Relic's or Legendaries. Then have the ingredients for them be a bunch of non-TE UR's that have a treasure type feel. Maybe a +2 Gem encrusted sword, a +2 Diamond ring of protection, etc. Still useful in game too. 5 or 6 UR's to make that +4 TE Relic and so on. Would help slow peoples progression to the cap.

So where would you put the cap?

A treasure cap, like any other cap, would go on your head.

If the UR in 2023 is a new TE token instead of a reprint, it should be a Treasure Cap! I know, having it on the Head Slot conflicts with a lot of builds, but maybe that's not a bad thing. +4 Treasure Coins Treasure Cap!

Mike Steele wrote:

kurtreznor wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Rob F wrote: To get people to continue to buy TE's while having a cap in place you just have to make the cap hard to reach. Set a cap and then make future TE's Relic's or Legendaries. Then have the ingredients for them be a bunch of non-TE UR's that have a treasure type feel. Maybe a +2 Gem encrusted sword, a +2 Diamond ring of protection, etc. Still useful in game too. 5 or 6 UR's to make that +4 TE Relic and so on. Would help slow peoples progression to the cap.

So where would you put the cap?

A treasure cap, like any other cap, would go on your head.

If the UR in 2023 is a new TE token instead of a reprint, it should be a Treasure Cap! I know, having it on the Head Slot conflicts with a lot of builds, but maybe that's not a bad thing. +4 Treasure Coins Treasure Cap!

Yes please. Also it must have some very dry quote or lore text on it making fun of all of the treasure debates that happen. PLEASE

Mike Steele wrote:

kurtreznor wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Rob F wrote: To get people to continue to buy TE's while having a cap in place you just have to make the cap hard to reach. Set a cap and then make future TE's Relic's or Legendaries. Then have the ingredients for them be a bunch of non-TE UR's that have a treasure type feel. Maybe a +2 Gem encrusted sword, a +2 Diamond ring of protection, etc. Still useful in game too. 5 or 6 UR's to make that +4 TE Relic and so on. Would help slow peoples progression to the cap.

So where would you put the cap?

A treasure cap, like any other cap, would go on your head.

If the UR in 2023 is a new TE token instead of a reprint, it should be a Treasure Cap! I know, having it on the Head Slot conflicts with a lot of builds, but maybe that's not a bad thing. +4 Treasure Coins Treasure Cap!

Ok, but has to be a hard cap.


Seriously if there is an upper limit on treasure pulls, what should the limit be?