TOPIC: 2020 UR Token ideas

Azzy wrote:

Xavon wrote:

Brokkr wrote:

Raven wrote:

Azzy wrote: I figure it might be kinda cool to introduce some finesse weapons. Basically just going along the mighty weapon train of thought, only in this case letting dex mod be used for melee instead of strength.

This idea has been put forward many times before Azzy.

The reason it is regularly discarded is because Dex is a powerful stat by itself: It's the basis for your AC.

If you want to go all-out Offense (a STR build) you need to sacrifice your Defense (equipping few DEX tokens) to do it.

But if there was a way to turn DEX into an Offensive stat, then you could stack nothing but DEX boosters, and there would be no downside.

Not to open that particular can of worms, but is there a reason the AC from the DEX bonus stacks with heavy armor?

Is there a reason it wouldn't? In 3.5E, Dex stacked with armor, though some armor limited it. That is not the case here for simplicity sake. And the fact it is not accurate in reality.

In 3.5 all armor had as part of their stats a "max DEX bonus" category. For most heavy armors it was super low (like 0 or 1 ish).

We dont have that here.
DEX stacks with all armor.

Now if you wanted to simulate that you'd have to put -DEX on armor tokens.

Adding dex restrictions would cause confusion and slow down coaching, unless you just said no dex applies then folks that have bought dex boosters will be mad.

At this point I think we're long past the ability to try and implement this idea.

valetutto wrote:

Azzy wrote:

Xavon wrote:

Brokkr wrote:

Raven wrote:

Azzy wrote: I figure it might be kinda cool to introduce some finesse weapons. Basically just going along the mighty weapon train of thought, only in this case letting dex mod be used for melee instead of strength.

This idea has been put forward many times before Azzy.

The reason it is regularly discarded is because Dex is a powerful stat by itself: It's the basis for your AC.

If you want to go all-out Offense (a STR build) you need to sacrifice your Defense (equipping few DEX tokens) to do it.

But if there was a way to turn DEX into an Offensive stat, then you could stack nothing but DEX boosters, and there would be no downside.

Not to open that particular can of worms, but is there a reason the AC from the DEX bonus stacks with heavy armor?

Is there a reason it wouldn't? In 3.5E, Dex stacked with armor, though some armor limited it. That is not the case here for simplicity sake. And the fact it is not accurate in reality.

In 3.5 all armor had as part of their stats a "max DEX bonus" category. For most heavy armors it was super low (like 0 or 1 ish).

We dont have that here.
DEX stacks with all armor.

Now if you wanted to simulate that you'd have to put -DEX on armor tokens.

Adding dex restrictions would cause confusion and slow down coaching, unless you just said no dex applies then folks that have bought dex boosters will be mad.

At this point I think we're long past the ability to try and implement this idea.

Pretty much this exactly, with the addition that any change to the fundamentals of how armor works would likely require such a giant amount of retconning/reworking of older tokens for the sake of balance that it would be utterly impractical.

Just one of those mechanics that is well and good for a character you play with the same group and same DM for months or years at a time, less practical when you're doing two-hour one-shots with a different set of DMs every session.

Trying to get us back on topic...

Shirt of Snaziness
+5 CHA, -2 WIS
Usable by: All

Sandals of the Sage
+2 INT, +2 WIS
Usable by: Bard, Cleric, Druid, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, and Wizards

+1 Bolt of Loading
+1 to hit and damage. Negates crossbow delay when used, reusable

Xavon wrote: +1 Returning Bolt of Loading
+1 to hit and damage. Negates crossbow delay when used, reusable

Fixed it for you

macXdmg wrote:

Xavon wrote: +1 Returning Bolt of Loading
+1 to hit and damage. Negates crossbow delay when used, reusable

Fixed it for you

Well, since we don't have keywords, I didn't think shoehorning 'returning' into an already long name was needed.

Xavon wrote:

macXdmg wrote:

Xavon wrote: +1 Returning Bolt of Loading
+1 to hit and damage. Negates crossbow delay when used, reusable

Fixed it for you

Well, since we don't have keywords, I didn't think shoehorning 'returning' into an already long name was needed.

I'd disagree. The Returning aspect is easily as important as the +1 aspect or the Loading aspect. I think I'd say that Returning plus either of the other aspects is UR-worthy, all three may actually push it to Relic.

I'd argue though that we should do a +1 Returning Sling Bullet before a Returning crossbow bolt (or arrow).

Totally not biased on that suggestion, of course.

Fiddy wrote:

Xavon wrote:

macXdmg wrote:

Xavon wrote: +1 Returning Bolt of Loading
+1 to hit and damage. Negates crossbow delay when used, reusable

Fixed it for you

Well, since we don't have keywords, I didn't think shoehorning 'returning' into an already long name was needed.

I'd disagree. The Returning aspect is easily as important as the +1 aspect or the Loading aspect. I think I'd say that Returning plus either of the other aspects is UR-worthy, all three may actually push it to Relic.

I'd argue though that we should do a +1 Returning Sling Bullet before a Returning crossbow bolt (or arrow).

Totally not biased on that suggestion, of course.

Does that just become a slotless +1/+1 ranged bonus then? Does it work with the whetstone if you use a red weapon?

Endgame wrote: Does that just become a slotless +1/+1 ranged bonus then?

Not exactly slotless. You'd have to choose between +1/+1 versus other specialized ammo.

Endgame wrote: Does it work with the whetstone if you use a red weapon?

My assumption is that the whetstone is a modifier on the weapon, as is the ammo. Whetstone adjustment goes into party card, while ammo still has to be presented in the room.

Endgame wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Xavon wrote:

macXdmg wrote:

Xavon wrote: +1 Returning Bolt of Loading
+1 to hit and damage. Negates crossbow delay when used, reusable

Fixed it for you

Well, since we don't have keywords, I didn't think shoehorning 'returning' into an already long name was needed.

I'd disagree. The Returning aspect is easily as important as the +1 aspect or the Loading aspect. I think I'd say that Returning plus either of the other aspects is UR-worthy, all three may actually push it to Relic.

I'd argue though that we should do a +1 Returning Sling Bullet before a Returning crossbow bolt (or arrow).

Totally not biased on that suggestion, of course.

Does that just become a slotless +1/+1 ranged bonus then? Does it work with the whetstone if you use a red weapon?

Only kinda slotless...it does prevent you from using another ammo.

Fiddy wrote:

Xavon wrote:

macXdmg wrote:

Xavon wrote: +1 Returning Bolt of Loading
+1 to hit and damage. Negates crossbow delay when used, reusable

Fixed it for you

Well, since we don't have keywords, I didn't think shoehorning 'returning' into an already long name was needed.

I'd disagree. The Returning aspect is easily as important as the +1 aspect or the Loading aspect. I think I'd say that Returning plus either of the other aspects is UR-worthy, all three may actually push it to Relic.

I'd argue though that we should do a +1 Returning Sling Bullet before a Returning crossbow bolt (or arrow).

Totally not biased on that suggestion, of course.

+1 Ammo is at the uncommon level
+2 Ammo is at the rare level
Dagger of Returning is a 1C, roughly the equivalent of a C+ or UC+
At the Exalted/R+ level we have +3 ammo that can be used with any missile weapon. We also have the new +1 with any Rare weapon, which is also truly slotless.

So +1 Returning Bolt would be at the R or R+ level, but probably not at the UR level. Plus it almost needs Returning at the UR level, because turning in a UR token hurts.

Which leaves us with loading, Loading is only useful for non-repeating Heavy Crossbows. And there are no URs in that category, so it arguably only applies to R or lower. So for anyone with a UR or Lt. crossbow, it is not even the equivalent of a UR...

Fiddy wrote:

Xavon wrote:

macXdmg wrote:

Xavon wrote: +1 Returning Bolt of Loading
+1 to hit and damage. Negates crossbow delay when used, reusable

Fixed it for you

Well, since we don't have keywords, I didn't think shoehorning 'returning' into an already long name was needed.

I'd disagree. The Returning aspect is easily as important as the +1 aspect or the Loading aspect. I think I'd say that Returning plus either of the other aspects is UR-worthy, all three may actually push it to Relic.

I'd argue though that we should do a +1 Returning Sling Bullet before a Returning crossbow bolt (or arrow).

Totally not biased on that suggestion, of course.

I mean, NEARLY every class can use bolts.

Just because EVERY class can use bullets, you think we should do that first?

Hmmm......

Xavon wrote: +1 Ammo is at the uncommon level
+2 Ammo is at the rare level
Dagger of Returning is a 1C, roughly the equivalent of a C+ or UC+
At the Exalted/R+ level we have +3 ammo that can be used with any missile weapon. We also have the new +1 with any Rare weapon, which is also truly slotless.

So +1 Returning Bolt would be at the R or R+ level, but probably not at the UR level. Plus it almost needs Returning at the UR level, because turning in a UR token hurts.

While there is no hard and fast rule, it is pretty common for effects that are found in a consumable at rarity level X to jump 2 rarity levels to find an analogous effect in a permanent token. It is hugely significant to take something from consumable to permanent.

Xavon wrote: Which leaves us with loading, Loading is only useful for non-repeating Heavy Crossbows. And there are no URs in that category, so it arguably only applies to R or lower.

Arguing that we don't have a type of weapon yet at a given rarity level is not a great argument. It assumes that we never will make one at that level (or higher). It isn't good to box ourselves in like that if we can avoid it.

Xavon wrote: So for anyone with a UR or Lt. crossbow, it is not even the equivalent of a UR...

Pointing out that there are tokens it isn't as useful for doesn't make it less useful for the ones it does impact. Balancing needs to take into account the extreme stacking cases, not just the average case.