TOPIC: Build Diversity:"Give us Choices.No Not like That"

Xavon wrote: Some slotless tokens could be moved into a slot or have a slot created for them. Like a Tome slot for tomes, libriums, books, and manuals. Or maybe a 'pouch' slot that holds tools, tubes, bowls, and other similar small items...

No no no, the pouch slot must hold pouches:

tokendb.com/?fwp_token_search=pouch

Matt wrote: I really like and and am pushing for more transmutes that bridge the gap between rare builds and URs. I really loved the Ring of Heroism transmute and Icecrag, it felt like honest great playable rewards for the years playing vs just spending $$$$ on tokens every year or else.

Agreed. It is important to remember that not everyone can afford a $8k pre-order (even if split up among the people they often play with), or to drop $1,000 on a single token. And not everyone has been playing for so long that they've built up a ton of GP and trade goods. I like the idea of Rare+ transmutes that help bridge the gap. (The recent 3- and 4-point transmutes have been mostly great, and I'd like to see that continue.)

I agree with Brad.

Thank you for voicing the contrarian opinion.

Keep fighting the good fight!

-THOT

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Xavon wrote: Some slotless tokens could be moved into a slot or have a slot created for them. Like a Tome slot for tomes, libriums, books, and manuals. Or maybe a 'pouch' slot that holds tools, tubes, bowls, and other similar small items...

No no no, the pouch slot must hold pouches:

tokendb.com/?fwp_token_search=pouch

Don't know if you are joking or not, but rename it a belt clip slot, and add pouches to it.

Also, Holy symbols might be needing a slot...

Xavon wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Xavon wrote: Some slotless tokens could be moved into a slot or have a slot created for them. Like a Tome slot for tomes, libriums, books, and manuals. Or maybe a 'pouch' slot that holds tools, tubes, bowls, and other similar small items...

No no no, the pouch slot must hold pouches:

tokendb.com/?fwp_token_search=pouch

Don't know if you are joking or not, but rename it a belt clip slot, and add pouches to it.

Also, Holy symbols might be needing a slot...

I was joking.

I think holy symbols are semi-slotted? Like, there is no Holy Symbol slot, but I think you are only allowed to bring one into the dungeon (technically) - I might be wrong about that - does anyone know for sure? I know you can only turn with one symbol at a time.

Xavon wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Xavon wrote: Some slotless tokens could be moved into a slot or have a slot created for them. Like a Tome slot for tomes, libriums, books, and manuals. Or maybe a 'pouch' slot that holds tools, tubes, bowls, and other similar small items...

No no no, the pouch slot must hold pouches:

tokendb.com/?fwp_token_search=pouch

Don't know if you are joking or not, but rename it a belt clip slot, and add pouches to it.

Also, Holy symbols might be needing a slot...

They already effectively have one. Per TokenDB: “Your cleric character may not benefit from more than one holy symbol per adventure–even if you, as a player, own more than one. (The gods don’t care for competition.)“

Druegar hides a lot of information in the TokenDB ...

BeLinda Mathie wrote:

Matt wrote: I really like and and am pushing for more transmutes that bridge the gap between rare builds and URs. I really loved the Ring of Heroism transmute and Icecrag, it felt like honest great playable rewards for the years playing vs just spending $$$$ on tokens every year or else.

Agreed. It is important to remember that not everyone can afford a $8k pre-order (even if split up among the people they often play with), or to drop $1,000 on a single token. And not everyone has been playing for so long that they've built up a ton of GP and trade goods. I like the idea of Rare+ transmutes that help bridge the gap. (The recent 3- and 4-point transmutes have been mostly great, and I'd like to see that continue.)

That's also the reasoning why i dislike the kilt as a gateway to eldritch. Really eldritch is years away as we have to wait for the next piece to come out. For someone starting out with the kilt it really is daunting/expensive to try to get all the teeth at this point just to get the 2 piece bonus. So really it's waiting for/if there is a follow on piece otherwise the kilt is just a different backed token at this point.

The idea that kilt is entry point is really disingenuous.

Matt wrote: That's also the reasoning why i dislike the kilt as a gateway to eldritch. Really eldritch is years away as we have to wait for the next piece to come out. For someone starting out with the kilt it really is daunting/expensive to try to get all the teeth at this point just to get the 2 piece bonus. So really it's waiting for/if there is a follow on piece otherwise the kilt is just a different backed token at this point.

The idea that kilt is entry point is really disingenuous.

I have mixed feelings on that statement.

On one hand: Yes. You're absolutely right. The kilt is not an entry point for those wanting to revel in the power and prestige of the Eldritch bonuses. It's gonna take literal years before that investment pays off... or over a thousand dollars of "playing catch-up" and buying another Eldritch token on the secondary market.

On the other hand... that's *exactly* what the Kilt is an entry point, to: The agony of waiting for an investment to pay off, interspersed with wild speculation, unrealistic hopes, and bitter forum rants.

Keep in mind that the original Eldritch item, the Ro7P took 7 years of waiting & collecting in order to get a cool transmuted token. Before it was even done, there were people complaining about how unfair it was that people who'd been playing since the beginning had an advantage over them. When the SRoEC cycle began, people didn't even collect the first Ring of Fire Elemental Control because no one realized it was the start of another multi-year collectible. There was weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth on the forums once they realized what was happening, and the price of that 1st token went sky-high... until Jeff kindly agreed to reprint it. Then people threw fits about having bought one on the secondary market at high prices.

When the Boots of the Winds cycle started, people were thrilled to actually have some notice ahead of time, so they could plan, and save up to afford it.... but there were still plenty of complaints that it wasn't a good entry point to Eldritch collecting... because people didn't realize the Kilts were around the corner.

I guess the upshot of what I'm saying is: Welcome to the Wonderful World of having NO CLUE whether this is a good idea, but knowing you'll probably regret it if you don't try.

Raven wrote:

Matt wrote: That's also the reasoning why i dislike the kilt as a gateway to eldritch. Really eldritch is years away as we have to wait for the next piece to come out. For someone starting out with the kilt it really is daunting/expensive to try to get all the teeth at this point just to get the 2 piece bonus. So really it's waiting for/if there is a follow on piece otherwise the kilt is just a different backed token at this point.

The idea that kilt is entry point is really disingenuous.

I have mixed feelings on that statement.

On one hand: Yes. You're absolutely right. The kilt is not an entry point for those wanting to revel in the power and prestige of the Eldritch bonuses. It's gonna take literal years before that investment pays off... or over a thousand dollars of "playing catch-up" and buying another Eldritch token on the secondary market.

On the other hand... that's *exactly* what the Kilt is an entry point, to: The agony of waiting for an investment to pay off, interspersed with wild speculation, unrealistic hopes, and bitter forum rants.

Keep in mind that the original Eldritch item, the Ro7P took 7 years of waiting & collecting in order to get a cool transmuted token. Before it was even done, there were people complaining about how unfair it was that people who'd been playing since the beginning had an advantage over them. When the SRoEC cycle began, people didn't even collect the first Ring of Fire Elemental Control because no one realized it was the start of another multi-year collectible. There was weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth on the forums once they realized what was happening, and the price of that 1st token went sky-high... until Jeff kindly agreed to reprint it. Then people threw fits about having bought one on the secondary market at high prices.

When the Boots of the Winds cycle started, people were thrilled to actually have some notice ahead of time, so they could plan, and save up to afford it.... but there were still plenty of complaints that it wasn't a good entry point to Eldritch collecting... because people didn't realize the Kilts were around the corner.

I guess the upshot of what I'm saying is: Welcome to the Wonderful World of having NO CLUE whether this is a good idea, but knowing you'll probably regret it if you don't try.

Great post and welcome back to civilization!

Ed

Raven wrote:

Matt wrote: That's also the reasoning why i dislike the kilt as a gateway to eldritch. Really eldritch is years away as we have to wait for the next piece to come out. For someone starting out with the kilt it really is daunting/expensive to try to get all the teeth at this point just to get the 2 piece bonus. So really it's waiting for/if there is a follow on piece otherwise the kilt is just a different backed token at this point.

The idea that kilt is entry point is really disingenuous.

I have mixed feelings on that statement.

On one hand: Yes. You're absolutely right. The kilt is not an entry point for those wanting to revel in the power and prestige of the Eldritch bonuses. It's gonna take literal years before that investment pays off... or over a thousand dollars of "playing catch-up" and buying another Eldritch token on the secondary market.

On the other hand... that's *exactly* what the Kilt is an entry point, to: The agony of waiting for an investment to pay off, interspersed with wild speculation, unrealistic hopes, and bitter forum rants.

Keep in mind that the original Eldritch item, the Ro7P took 7 years of waiting & collecting in order to get a cool transmuted token. Before it was even done, there were people complaining about how unfair it was that people who'd been playing since the beginning had an advantage over them. When the SRoEC cycle began, people didn't even collect the first Ring of Fire Elemental Control because no one realized it was the start of another multi-year collectible. There was weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth on the forums once they realized what was happening, and the price of that 1st token went sky-high... until Jeff kindly agreed to reprint it. Then people threw fits about having bought one on the secondary market at high prices.

When the Boots of the Winds cycle started, people were thrilled to actually have some notice ahead of time, so they could plan, and save up to afford it.... but there were still plenty of complaints that it wasn't a good entry point to Eldritch collecting... because people didn't realize the Kilts were around the corner.

I guess the upshot of what I'm saying is: Welcome to the Wonderful World of having NO CLUE whether this is a good idea, but knowing you'll probably regret it if you don't try.

Glad to see you back Raven, i'm more than a bit bitter when all the other eldritch items combined and at least were or felt better than sum of the parts and for more than a few players the kilt is a strict downgrade not even counting eldritch set bonus or not. See people using the dex kilt for stat min to use the hammer.

I'll admit it comes to how much investment in tokens one wants to do and i don't 'invest' or buy stuff and set aside for later transmutes as admittedly i can't afford to. I've always spent more in tickets then in tokens over the past 5 years. I tend to buy what i feel gives immediate use or value out of a pyp/non relic transmute. Why i pushed and made my only legendary (CoA) over teeth and boots i missed out on. Not really a bad choice at the time but where i felt value (the extra treasure every run).

It’s hard because the start point when people start getting ‘serious’ (to whatever that means to a player) is different.

Generally, token sales and the highest end tokens are catered more toward those who are serious tokenholics. And that is ultimately... reasonable. At the core, the business needs to move tokens to be solvent, survive, and thrive. The issue is, the game is populated by gamers who see the artifacts and relics from our youthful D&D games in token form and feel they might someday be attainable. And yes, that random chance exists at the treasure box, but that chance is... the equivalent of happening upon the one ring while mowing the grass - due to things like the CoA, it’s the tokenholics who have the best chance at getting the random draws. And I’m not complaining about that - they are using the tools they collected to best make it worth their while.

So while I agree with that general good/bad token design in the OP, I also note that things like the eldritch items and legendary items aren’t at all typical or in the realm of most players. Now, I absolutely think things like Thor’s Hammer, CoA, and ‘absolute BiS’ items that every single class uses are dangerous. But I think the high end tokens should be suitably powerful at what they do so they are chased - but do think stat requirements might need to be more common to restrict people from always chasing them, and care to not make them the only path to choose.

Slotless tokens are definitely insidious since they continue to add benefits without drawbacks.

I think it would be a better idea instead of slotless tokens that add benefits universally, begin to introduce ‘feat’ tokens for different classes. They should be relatively rare, but act in a lower tier to the RoSP alternate class benefit - instead, subbing out an ability/spell of a specific class for another ability. I think that might allow for greater specificity, and help alter how people play. If designed carefully, they might even open up older tokens and make them more useful. Imagine being able to switch out a mage spell of X level for something not on the card? Or adding a ‘cleave’ mechanic to the barbarian as opposed to two handed benefit? Imagine a cleric that had a legendary high end token representing some inate corruption that reversed all their cure spells into harm (and how that might affect the way an entire party might build). In this way, powers, spells, and abilities could be sacrificed and others added instead of just layering on the cheese. It would need to be notated somewhere and careful (because obviously the goal is to have tokens represent the change and not on the item card), but it would start introducing things that would alter the relatively rigid builds without making them crossovers.

That was long (like many of my posts are), but maybe we are at a point where instead of adding more things on, the answer is finding a system of substitution.

Matt wrote: Glad to see you back Raven

Thank Matt & Ed

i'm more than a bit bitter when all the other eldritch items combined and at least were or felt better than sum of the parts ...(snip)

Yeah. I can see how that's a downer.

Myself, I'm a bit bitter that these URs were so much better than some of the other URs we've had to collect over the years, in the hopes that their eventual Transmute would be worthwhile. Okay - the slotless Rod pieces were good on their own... but the Elemental Rings were "meh," the Wind Boots were only so-so compared to some of the other great footwear out there (and Rogues couldn't even wear the first couple boots because the Boots of Elvenkind were locked in!) and hey those Teeth of Cavadar don't even do anything at all on their own! So yeah, I'm really kinda bitter that the Kilts were so awesome individually that they've created this awful debate when we should just be happy with what we've got, and go yell at kids to get off our lawn.

...

Okay, sorry - that wasn't aimed at you. I may be channeling some pent-up aggression about how people's expectations have fueled power creep in the last years.


I'm glad TPTB have given us so much opportunity to influence token development... and at the same time, I think we're our own worst enemies.