TOPIC: Build Diversity:"Give us Choices.No Not like That"

Rob F wrote: Would a coach record the stats of my 10 Rings on the party card?

Honestly if you and everyone in the group told me this was a 10 ring run, I would inform you that TD only allows 2 rings on standard run but if everyone wanted a 10 ring run I would let you pass because it would not be worth fighting with you. Turkey Leg's aren't weapons and an entire run was allowed to use them as such.


If on the other hand you only had one ticket in a pug or anyone had a problem with it I would call a coordinator to resolve the issue like it says in the coaches guide.

Picc wrote:

Rob F wrote: Would a coach record the stats of my 10 Rings on the party card?

Honestly if you and everyone in the group told me this was a 10 ring run, I would inform you that TD only allows 2 rings on standard run but if everyone wanted a 10 ring run I would let you pass because it would notes be worth fighting with you. Turkey Leg's aren't weapons and an entire run was allowed to use them as such.


If on the other hand you only had one ticket in a pug or anyone had a problem with it I would call a coordinator to resolve the issue like it says in the coaches guide.

Again you’re being silly, Rob. Of course not.

But if you’re wearing say Ring of Eel and Ring of Focus, which go on the card, then you tell the DM you’re taking less damage because you’re wearing a Ring of Fire Elemental Command, how will they know you’re cheating? And they won’t even ask, because it’s HP, and fire resistance doesn’t go on the party card. But if you try to claim the extra retribution damage they’d know, I suppose.

But I don’t think people do that, because ring limit strikes them as reasonable and it’s traditional.

And pretty much everything boils down to HP. You can replace both Lamps with a GAP and the willingness to burn 7 one-point heal pots. Add more pots and replace more tokens.

Game balance is nebulous at best. Here’s a secret - I don’t think TD gives a hoot how many characters live or die, within reason. We choose our own difficulty level. If your legendary-dripping party wants to run on non-lethal, have a ball. If anything, I know Jeff gets upset if there are too many TPKs in room 7, because I’ve seen it. But if everyone lives? I’m pretty sure he’s okay with that so long as everyone is having fun. But what do I know.

I do know this: if balance is your big concern, you’re barking up the wrong tree. The plethora of Eldritch, legendary and relic weapons, Focus rings, and armor has a much higher impact on game balance than counting Lamps and Scroll Tubes. You should probably focus on putting some limits on those instead.

Picc wrote:

Rob F wrote: Just mentioning for fun, there already is a bag of holding token it just doesn't really do anything.

Picc, that is my favorite Token that I own today. Had one back in my D&D days.

Me too!
My Bag of Holding woodie is my favorite token.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Picc wrote:

Rob F wrote: Would a coach record the stats of my 10 Rings on the party card?

Honestly if you and everyone in the group told me this was a 10 ring run, I would inform you that TD only allows 2 rings on standard run but if everyone wanted a 10 ring run I would let you pass because it would notes be worth fighting with you. Turkey Leg's aren't weapons and an entire run was allowed to use them as such.


If on the other hand you only had one ticket in a pug or anyone had a problem with it I would call a coordinator to resolve the issue like it says in the coaches guide.

Again you’re being silly, Rob. Of course not.

But if you’re wearing say Ring of Eel and Ring of Focus, which go on the card, then you tell the DM you’re taking less damage because you’re wearing a Ring of Fire Elemental Command, how will they know you’re cheating? And they won’t even ask, because it’s HP, and fire resistance doesn’t go on the party card. But if you try to claim the extra retribution damage they’d know, I suppose.

But I don’t think people do that, because ring limit strikes them as reasonable and it’s traditional.

And pretty much everything boils down to HP. You can replace both Lamps with a GAP and the willingness to burn 7 one-point heal pots. Add more pots and replace more tokens.

Game balance is nebulous at best. Here’s a secret - I don’t think TD gives a hoot how many characters live or die, within reason. We choose our own difficulty level. If your legendary-dripping party wants to run on non-lethal, have a ball. If anything, I know Jeff gets upset if there are too many TPKs in room 7, because I’ve seen it. But if everyone lives? I’m pretty sure he’s okay with that so long as everyone is having fun. But what do I know.

I do know this: if balance is your big concern, you’re barking up the wrong tree. The plethora of Eldritch, legendary and relic weapons, Focus rings, and armor has a much higher impact on game balance than counting Lamps and Scroll Tubes. You should probably focus on putting some limits on those instead.

Your last paragraph - Great point. I had lunch with another TD player today. Lots of time spent talking Tokens, especially the Kilt and Lenses. And your right, that's where the meat and potatoes is. However I still think it's worth exploring limits on slotless ones. Scroll tubes no biggie. Death Die, Ashes, the UR Horn, and now the new Tome (which does affect the party card) etc. all continue to add a form of creep to the game. At least IMO they do. And I know self policing is possible, I guess I'm just more of a rules fanatic then others. If TPTB made a ruling you could only have so many of "X" Tokens per character build I'd stick with it. Would be a sad day for my many Horns though...

I think slotless limits will be like speed limits: some will follow them strictly, some will fudge (“what’s one more Horn?”) and others will ignore them completely.

And coming down on slotless feels to me like spending hours clipping five-cent coupons to save $1 a month on groceries while wasting $500 a month smoking three packs a day. I mean, sure, the coupons help, I guess... but if you can’t tell the difference, then what’s the difference?

I’m just more of a libertarian. Let people do what they want, and don’t add rules and hassles when they won’t really help anything other than our desire to do “something,” even if it’s only symbolic.

Brad Mortensen wrote: I think slotless limits will be like speed limits: some will follow them strictly, some will fudge (“what’s one more Horn?”) and others will ignore them completely.

And coming down on slotless feels to me like spending hours clipping five-cent coupons to save $1 a month on groceries while wasting $500 a month smoking three packs a day. I mean, sure, the coupons help, I guess... but if you can’t tell the difference, then what’s the difference?

I’m just more of a libertarian. Let people do what they want, and don’t add rules and hassles when they won’t really help anything other than our desire to do “something,” even if it’s only symbolic.

Clipping coupons? What does that mean?

I'll just agree that we disagree on this. I think TPTB could implement this with minimal effort. A few posts on the forums and a change to the character builders and players guide and bam, done. Any more effort then that and I'd send them all copies of a few great time management books. Plus if a limit was such a big deal I think more players would have chimmed in by now. But maybe they are all focused on the new Token sets. Or maybe they are all too busy clipping coupons on a Friday night. I myself have a long over due date with the fabulous Johnnie Walker. Cheers until the morning!!

MasterED wrote:

Picc wrote: Rares have been good the last few years. I hope it continues. In terms of a new defenders set I would totally support something like that. Maybe we could look at making the currently proposed Nether armor a set that grants freedom of movement.

I would agree good for Fighters, Cleric, Paladin (with the Defender Set). I would like to see a similar item for Rogue, Ranger, Druid, Bard. The 2019 Rare robes would be it for the Wizard/Monk. So that there are 3 armor pieces for the classes that are a nudge better then the regular Rare AC and they are in rotation so New players don't have to wait forever to get them for their class. If they don't want to wait then they can pick them up in trade inexpensively.

Ed

Yes, this is a better-written version of one of the points I was trying to make. The Defender Set is great and I'm glad it was recently re-issued. I'd love to see similar item(s) for Rogue, Ranger, Druid, and Bard.

BeLinda Mathie wrote:

MasterED wrote:

Picc wrote: Rares have been good the last few years. I hope it continues. In terms of a new defenders set I would totally support something like that. Maybe we could look at making the currently proposed Nether armor a set that grants freedom of movement.

I would agree good for Fighters, Cleric, Paladin (with the Defender Set). I would like to see a similar item for Rogue, Ranger, Druid, Bard. The 2019 Rare robes would be it for the Wizard/Monk. So that there are 3 armor pieces for the classes that are a nudge better then the regular Rare AC and they are in rotation so New players don't have to wait forever to get them for their class. If they don't want to wait then they can pick them up in trade inexpensively.

Ed

Yes, this is a better-written version of one of the points I was trying to make. The Defender Set is great and I'm glad it was recently re-issued. I'd love to see similar item(s) for Rogue, Ranger, Druid, and Bard.

We should lobby for that ahead of next years design.

We had a heavy armor str cycle in 2018, and a heavy armor con cycle in 2019.

It would be nice to have a light armor dex cycle at rare in 2020.

The only problem is rogues and rangers can’t use shields other than bucklers, and I don’t think rogues get ac helmets.

Maybe the set could be torso armor, neck ac granter, and a back slot item or something.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

BeLinda Mathie wrote:

MasterED wrote:

Picc wrote: Rares have been good the last few years. I hope it continues. In terms of a new defenders set I would totally support something like that. Maybe we could look at making the currently proposed Nether armor a set that grants freedom of movement.

I would agree good for Fighters, Cleric, Paladin (with the Defender Set). I would like to see a similar item for Rogue, Ranger, Druid, Bard. The 2019 Rare robes would be it for the Wizard/Monk. So that there are 3 armor pieces for the classes that are a nudge better then the regular Rare AC and they are in rotation so New players don't have to wait forever to get them for their class. If they don't want to wait then they can pick them up in trade inexpensively.

Ed

Yes, this is a better-written version of one of the points I was trying to make. The Defender Set is great and I'm glad it was recently re-issued. I'd love to see similar item(s) for Rogue, Ranger, Druid, and Bard.

We should lobby for that ahead of next years design.

We had a heavy armor str cycle in 2018, and a heavy armor con cycle in 2019.

It would be nice to have a light armor dex cycle at rare in 2020.

The only problem is rogues and rangers can’t use shields other than bucklers, and I don’t think rogues get ac helmets.

Maybe the set could be torso armor, neck ac granter, and a back slot item or something.

Necks gonna be a hard sell after the class legendary (unless the set can make use of the legendary). I would have the set include cloak, hood, armor since that feels iconic.

We are also getting a +1ac rare helm this year unless it changes.

Matthew Hayward wrote: We should lobby for that ahead of next years design.

We had a heavy armor str cycle in 2018, and a heavy armor con cycle in 2019.

It would be nice to have a light armor dex cycle at rare in 2020.

The only problem is rogues and rangers can’t use shields other than bucklers, and I don’t think rogues get ac helmets.

Maybe the set could be torso armor, neck ac granter, and a back slot item or something.

Agreed. Picc makes a good point about Neck slots leading to Legendaries, but I'm OK with a Rare set for light armor classes that included a Neck slot item even if it isn't part of the Legendary path. (Sort of similar to the proposed Rogue class item being in the Feet slot at UR but then moving to Neck at Relic and Legendary.) I suspect there are lots of players who don't mind paying a few bucks for tokens (or $10-$15 for a good Rare set), even if they aren't (yet, or ever) up for moving to URs or more. Cloak, Hood and Armor also make sense, but that's a little complicated for Rogues unless the set included the proposed Hood of Shadows.

BeLinda Mathie wrote: Raven, thank you for starting this thread.

Picc wrote: I think one thing we also need to be mindful of is nonBIS uncommon/Rare level players. They make up most of the population and are often forgotten during design because we're so hyper focused on the UR+ items.

+1 to this. Two people in my guild started playing TD in 2013. I joined them in 2014. At Gen Con 2017, my guild had 10 level 4 players. At Origins 2018, we were mostly level 5. At Gen Con 2018, we'd gotten everyone up to level 5 through a mix of RoH, Might Set, and Charm Set. We've moved from having some URs and mostly Rares to a decent number of URs, with a few Relics, 3 & 4-point transmutes, and a few Rares. Some folks still have UCs in pretty important slots. We've got one Charm of Avarice in the whole guild, which was made at Gen Con 2018, and 6 ISSN among us. None of us have any Eldritch items yet. (We do have full Synergy, though!)

So, we're a little further along than the UC/Rare type players, but we're nowhere near BIS. We missed the boat on making the RoSP and Supreme Ring, and given their current prices, it's extremely unlikely we'd ever buy them. Some of us might shell out ~$1000 for Boots of the Four Winds, but there's no way all 10 of us will get them. The introduction of the Kilts and the Teeth, and the availability of a 2-item Eldritch Set to all classes, is the first real chance for any of us to get to level 5 via an Eldritch set bonus.

Anyway, the point of this background is that it can be a little intimidating to read discussions that assume "everyone" has the 3 existing Eldritch items, along with numerous Relic and Legendary tokens. Some of us are just getting into the game--or getting more serious about the game--right about now. It's nice to have entry points to new Eldritch items, as well as new TEs and Rare tokens that provide meaningful benefits. Three and four-point transmutes are a great introduction to the concept of transmuting and can provide real benefits at a reasonable cost to players who aren't quite ready to take the UR+ plunge. So if possible, please try to keep those of us who aren't yet (or may never be) at BIS in mind when talking about things like build diversity.

I myself now fall into this category as i finally/fingers crossed have a group that i can play year to year with. Otherwise it's been pugs until last 2/3 years. I'm at the end of UR+ player, most of my group has level bump from RoH/might set but others are still lvl 4 and using UC/R builds.

Most of us do 250 or 2 pyp's and that's it for the year.

One or 2 of us might consider buying teeth but half of us are able to make the kilt but that'll really be just 1 eldritch piece and however long till/if we get a 2nd one. That's why i'm hoping the kilt is good on its own as there folks like my group who can't consider or didn't know teeth existed. I admittedly held off as i was working on getting my only legendary during those years (CoA).

I volunteer and have been around the forums a while so can't honestly call myself new anymore but have spent too many years running as and with budget players. A decent part of my build UR's come from the good volunteer tokens.

I really like and and am pushing for more transmutes that bridge the gap between rare builds and URs. I really loved the Ring of Heroism transmute and Icecrag, it felt like honest great playable rewards for the years playing vs just spending $$$$ on tokens every year or else.

Some slotless tokens could be moved into a slot or have a slot created for them. Like a Tome slot for tomes, libriums, books, and manuals. Or maybe a 'pouch' slot that holds tools, tubes, bowls, and other similar small items...