TOPIC: Build Diversity:"Give us Choices.No Not like That"

BeLinda Mathie wrote: Anyway, the point of this background is that it can be a little intimidating to read discussions that assume "everyone" has the 3 existing Eldritch items, along with numerous Relic and Legendary tokens. Some of us are just getting into the game--or getting more serious about the game--right about now. It's nice to have entry points to new Eldritch items, as well as new TEs and Rare tokens that provide meaningful benefits. Three and four-point transmutes are a great introduction to the concept of transmuting and can provide real benefits at a reasonable cost to players who aren't quite ready to take the UR+ plunge. So if possible, please try to keep those of us who aren't yet (or may never be) at BIS in mind when talking about things like build diversity.

I think you are right and I think there is more thought given to the new to intermediate level of players. That is where the Slotless (sorry) Enchanter's Whetstone and Charm of Treasure Finding is aimed. I think there has been more thought give to good functional Transmute 3-4 stars for them.

Now the next step should be focusing on good Rares for all the classes over the next few years.

Ed

MasterED wrote:

BeLinda Mathie wrote: Anyway, the point of this background is that it can be a little intimidating to read discussions that assume "everyone" has the 3 existing Eldritch items, along with numerous Relic and Legendary tokens. Some of us are just getting into the game--or getting more serious about the game--right about now. It's nice to have entry points to new Eldritch items, as well as new TEs and Rare tokens that provide meaningful benefits. Three and four-point transmutes are a great introduction to the concept of transmuting and can provide real benefits at a reasonable cost to players who aren't quite ready to take the UR+ plunge. So if possible, please try to keep those of us who aren't yet (or may never be) at BIS in mind when talking about things like build diversity.

I think you are right and I think there is more thought given to the new to intermediate level of players. That is where the Slotless (sorry) Enchanter's Whetstone and Charm of Treasure Finding is aimed. I think there has been more thought give to good functional Transmute 3-4 stars for them.

Now the next step should be focusing on good Rares for all the classes over the next few years.

Ed

Rares have been good the last few years. I hope it continues. In terms of a new defenders set I would totally support something like that. Maybe we could look at making the currently proposed Nether armor a set that grants freedom of movement.

Picc wrote:

MasterED wrote:

BeLinda Mathie wrote: Anyway, the point of this background is that it can be a little intimidating to read discussions that assume "everyone" has the 3 existing Eldritch items, along with numerous Relic and Legendary tokens. Some of us are just getting into the game--or getting more serious about the game--right about now. It's nice to have entry points to new Eldritch items, as well as new TEs and Rare tokens that provide meaningful benefits. Three and four-point transmutes are a great introduction to the concept of transmuting and can provide real benefits at a reasonable cost to players who aren't quite ready to take the UR+ plunge. So if possible, please try to keep those of us who aren't yet (or may never be) at BIS in mind when talking about things like build diversity.

I think you are right and I think there is more thought given to the new to intermediate level of players. That is where the Slotless (sorry) Enchanter's Whetstone and Charm of Treasure Finding is aimed. I think there has been more thought give to good functional Transmute 3-4 stars for them.

Now the next step should be focusing on good Rares for all the classes over the next few years.

Ed

Rares have been good the last few years. I hope it continues. In terms of a new defenders set I would totally support something like that. Maybe we could look at making the currently proposed Nether armor a set that grants freedom of movement.

The Bliss Bull set was/is awesome for fighters. I like that when you stack it up against the defender set you have the option of sacrificing some defense and free movement to to hit more often and harder.

As we get another year away from the Defender set being in print, the Nether Stout set offers a nice (but not as cool as Bliss Bull) bonus.

Picc wrote: Rares have been good the last few years. I hope it continues. In terms of a new defenders set I would totally support something like that. Maybe we could look at making the currently proposed Nether armor a set that grants freedom of movement.

I would agree good for Fighters, Cleric, Paladin (with the Defender Set). I would like to see a similar item for Rogue, Ranger, Druid, Bard. The 2019 Rare robes would be it for the Wizard/Monk. So that there are 3 armor pieces for the classes that are a nudge better then the regular Rare AC and they are in rotation so New players don't have to wait forever to get them for their class. If they don't want to wait then they can pick them up in trade inexpensively.

Ed

Arnold wrote: The Bliss Bull set was/is awesome for fighters. I like that when you stack it up against the defender set you have the option of sacrificing some defense and free movement to to hit more often and harder.

I agree Arnold that set is like a good choice of slot diversity for F/C/P classes - now we need those type of choices for the other classes.

Ed

MasterED wrote:

Picc wrote: Rares have been good the last few years. I hope it continues. In terms of a new defenders set I would totally support something like that. Maybe we could look at making the currently proposed Nether armor a set that grants freedom of movement.

I would agree good for Fighters, Cleric, Paladin (with the Defender Set). I would like to see a similar item for Rogue, Ranger, Druid, Bard. The 2019 Rare robes would be it for the Wizard/Monk. So that there are 3 armor pieces for the classes that are a nudge better then the regular Rare AC and they are in rotation so New players don't have to wait forever to get them for their class. If they don't want to wait then they can pick them up in trade inexpensively.

Ed

I would love to see an Ogre set for the DPS classes
Gauntlets + Belt + one new Ogre item(boots maybe, they would be of equivalent power to the upcoming boots of fire completion) SetBonus +2 Con


For Casters a Norns Set
Necklace of the Norns + This years Ring of the Norns + 1 more Norn item (maybe a robe) = +2AC or your Norn recasts loose the As scroll limitation.

Raven wrote: I'd also like to see some well thought-out guidelines put forward for future years development.

This year, it was great to see Jeff expound on some of the difficulties surrounding OP tokens, and make some real changes to address those problems, however painful. What I'd like to see coming out of that, is suggestions for how we can keep from doing it in the future! Guidelines like... say... "tokens shouldn't have stat bumps higher than X ... except in these slots." Or... "there should be 3 ways to get X ability at UR and lower, before we make a Relic or Higher which combines that ability with another ability (or stat bump.)" Or "Let's deliberately put these 2 cool powers in conflicting slots, and all practice backing away slowly."

This would be fascinating - Magic the Gathering has a history of "color identity" for the various card types, and their head of R&D has published information on how they put effects into different colors and why.

It would definitely help me to understand some of the underlying design rules in TD. Given the coherence of certain slots, I think they may exist, even if only as rules of thumb.

For example:

Ioun Stones seem to have a slot identify of defensive: Primarily DR and Saves, but also other defensive effects (ignore certain monster effects, free movement, etc.).

Gloves seem to have an offensive identify: Primarily melee, secondary ranged and spell.


It would be neat to know things like:

Order of slot power for melee (e.g. Tier 1: Waist, Tier 2: hands, neck, Tier 3: Ring, Head, Boots, Wrists. Slots unaligned with melee: Ioun, Earcuff, Back)

Order of slot power for spell damage (e.g. Tier 1: Ring, Tier 2: Shirt, Hands, Tier 3: Neck, Earcuff. Slots unaligned with spell damage: Ioun, Back, Waist, Wrists).

Order of slot power for AC, saves.

Slot identity per slot: primary and secondary effects, effects that don't belong there

Class affinity for slots: any class wrinkles (e.g. "Cloaks are normally defensive, but for Rogues they are occasionally offensive)



Having some structure could guide discussion, and mitigate a lot of misunderstandings.

Raven wrote:
I also think it's a ?dangerous? idea to enforce...

Here’s where you and I disagree. The idea of limiting the number of slotless tokens isn’t “dangerous” to enforce, it’s impossible.

Other than RoSP tokens, none of the other slotless tokens affect the party card. There are columns for coaches to verify a few key ones like Death Die, but not the other 99%. They’re situational or optionally activated.

I know you wouldn’t advocate coaches inventorying everyone’s kit. If a player pulls out an over-the-limit slotless token in the dungeon, how is the DM to know? And until TD offers free bag check to everyone, there’s no way you can ask, let alone force, people to leave their “spare” tokens outside.

I go back to what I said earlier - if the rhetorical you is offended by your suitcase full of horns and whatnot, leave them home. There’s really no way you can force someone else not to use theirs, and I really don’t understand why it’s anyone else’s business.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Raven wrote:
I also think it's a ?dangerous? idea to enforce...

Here’s where you and I disagree. The idea of limiting the number of slotless tokens isn’t “dangerous” to enforce, it’s impossible.

I agree Brad, I don't think anyone would be asking the coaches to enforce the rule. It would be very much like HP - on the honor system.

This would also give the character creators a break by limiting the number of slotless they need to show - it is getting out of hand - pardon the pun

Ed

Great points, Raven! If you want to do a lot of damage, play a Fighter-type. If you like the strategy and hand-eye box challenges of playing Rogue, you should be expecting to also be able to have tokens at your disposal that allow you to do as much damage as a Fighter-type.

The more tokens that are available to every class water down the nature of all the classes they touch. Thor's hammer is the case in point. It should have been much harder for a non-Fighter-type class to use.

MasterED wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Raven wrote:
I also think it's a ?dangerous? idea to enforce...

Here’s where you and I disagree. The idea of limiting the number of slotless tokens isn’t “dangerous” to enforce, it’s impossible.

I agree Brad, I don't think anyone would be asking the coaches to enforce the rule. It would be very much like HP - on the honor system.

This would also give the character creators a break by limiting the number of slotless they need to show - it is getting out of hand - pardon the pun

Ed

For the honor system to work, people have to accept it. HP is baked into D&D, so people see it as core to TD. They don’t, in my experience, cheat on HP even though it would be dead easy to do.

Unlimited Slotless has been part of TD for ages, as much as HP and two rings.

Adding one more sudden nerf out of nowhere for an inadequately articulated rationale is just adding complications and inviting even more resentment. And for what? (“Fun?” Not to me. It just would just add pain-in-my-ass. “Realism?” We drank a toast with a ghost covered in green slimy corruption and fought a dragon while casting spells... please. If you want realism, you’re playing the wrong game.) “Diversity” in the name of diversity is, in my mind, not a valid goal. It’s a means to a goal. So, why? Trying to give people more options by limiting their options makes zero sense to me.

So, it will be ignored by a lot of people. That doesn’t count the non-forumites who won’t even hear about it, and think it’s a joke when they do.

As for the apps - who cares? I don’t add most of my slotless tokens to the app, unless I’m sharing my build for a GT run or something. RoSP goes in because it affects the party card. Why bother with lamps and Horn of Blasting or any of the rest? I just carry them with me. Am I the only one?

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Raven wrote:
I also think it's a ?dangerous? idea to enforce...

Here’s where you and I disagree. The idea of limiting the number of slotless tokens isn’t “dangerous” to enforce, it’s impossible.

Other than RoSP tokens, none of the other slotless tokens affect the party card. There are columns for coaches to verify a few key ones like Death Die, but not the other 99%. They’re situational or optionally activated.

I know you wouldn’t advocate coaches inventorying everyone’s kit. If a player pulls out an over-the-limit slotless token in the dungeon, how is the DM to know? And until TD offers free bag check to everyone, there’s no way you can ask, let alone force, people to leave their “spare” tokens outside.

I go back to what I said earlier - if the rhetorical you is offended by your suitcase full of horns and whatnot, leave them home. There’s really no way you can force someone else not to use theirs, and I really don’t understand why it’s anyone else’s business.

Even though slotless Tokens don't affect the party card they do affect game balance. Some much more than others. And when the game goes out of balance it affects everyone.

I get that it might be more burdensome on coaches to verify more Tokens. I will have to think on that one a bit more.

As for forcing someone not to use all their Tokens it's done all the time, every game. Because the rules don't allow you to use all your Tokens. Would a coach record the stats of my 10 Rings on the party card?