TOPIC: Build Diversity:"Give us Choices.No Not like That"

Raven wrote: Yeah. I think you & I agree on a lot more things than we disagree on.

We usually do. Just not in a place to discuss things rationally. You should see how many posts I’ve deleted today as being way too snarky. I should just get off the forums for awhile .

Maybe tomorrow.

Raven, great post and I think I agree with everything you have said. Looking at the current proposed 2019 token set, what do you think should be changed based on your recommendations?

A really clear explication of the situation, with great examples - nice work!

RE: limited slotless tokens.

I think there are two categories:

1. Slotless tokens that don’t impact the party card.

These I would leave unlimited as they add skill elements to the game - sure you might have 101 horns for any situation, but remembering you do in the heat of the moment and activating it is difficult, and rewards skill.

Speaking for myself - I forgot TONs if stuff in the dungeon this year - dr, regen, even to use my medallion of mystic mouth several times! It’s also great to feel: “I did a good job!” When you remember the right token at the right moment - for example using flask of sharing to split holy water in the corruption dungeon.

2. Slotless items that impact the party card or starting HP.

These could eventually cause problems, and have no skill component - if you own them you equip them period.

Might be wise to put a limit on them now - make them effectively slotted in a “Patsy” slot that can hold up to 10 of them or something.

Nice post. Some good ideas. I would totally support a limit on slotless items. I find it increasingly ridiculous that my character is allowed to carry an unlimited number of items.

Matthew Hayward wrote: RE: limited slotless tokens.

I think there are two categories:

1. Slotless tokens that don’t impact the party card.

These I would leave unlimited as they add skill elements to the game - sure you might have 101 horns for any situation, but remembering you do in the heat of the moment and activating it is difficult, and rewards skill.

Speaking for myself - I forgot TONs if stuff in the dungeon this year - dr, regen, even to use my medallion of mystic mouth several times! It’s also great to feel: “I did a good job!” When you remember the right token at the right moment - for example using flask of sharing to split holy water in the corruption dungeon.

2. Slotless items that impact the party card or starting HP.

These could eventually cause problems, and have no skill component - if you own them you equip them period.

Might be wise to put a limit on them now - make them effectively slotted in a “Patsy” slot that can hold up to 10 of them or something.

Some good points. But slotless items that dont impact the party card can still lead to massive power creep (Ashes + Death Die + Healing Horns, etc.). If you remember to use them of course. Plus if you have 101 slotless items you have to carry them with you, and then waste everyones time digging them out when the DM asks to see them. Unless you have one of those cool Token sashes. But then you'd weigh an extra 100lbs.

Dave wrote: Nice post. Some good ideas. I would totally support a limit on slotless items. I find it increasingly ridiculous that my character is allowed to carry an unlimited number of items.

Why? There have been bags of holding and similar ways to get around encumbrance almost as long as there has been encumbrance in rpgs.

I don’t understand why some people want to impose their idea of “fun” on everyone else.

If you want to limit the number of slotless tokens you carry, then you absolutely should. If you want to carry a steamer trunk full, go for it. As long as it doesn’t have wheels, of course.

I’m going out on a limb and say most trunk players are not in PUGs. Set limits in your prefab parties if you want. Challenge yourself if you choose. If your friends annoy you, speak up.

But the game is supposed to be fun. You do you. Can I just do me?

Brad Mortensen wrote: I don’t understand why some people want to impose their idea of “fun” on everyone else.

If you want to limit the number of slotless tokens you carry, then you absolutely should. If you want to carry a steamer trunk full, go for it. As long as it doesn’t have wheels, of course.

I’m going out on a limb and say most trunk players are not in PUGs. Set limits in your prefab parties if you want. Challenge yourself if you choose. If your friends annoy you, speak up.

But the game is supposed to be fun. You do you. Can I just do me?

+2

Brad Mortensen wrote: I don’t understand why some people want to impose their idea of “fun” on everyone else.

If you want to limit the number of slotless tokens you carry, then you absolutely should. If you want to carry a steamer trunk full, go for it. As long as it doesn’t have wheels, of course.

I’m going out on a limb and say most trunk players are not in PUGs. Set limits in your prefab parties if you want. Challenge yourself if you choose. If your friends annoy you, speak up.

But the game is supposed to be fun. You do you. Can I just do me?

I'm more concerned about the game balance aspect and adding a bit more realism to it. I don't think Slotless Tokens should have ever been created in the first place, but that's just me. Maybe Jeff should let us use 10 rings, one for each finger? And two pairs of shoes, one for each foot? If I proposed adding 8 rings to the game because it would make it more "fun" for me what do you think would happen? Would a coach in the room allow it? Why have slots in the first place?

And if I do what I do then maybe I do want the transmuted Kilt with +10 to all stats so I can go through the dungeon and show up the lower level players. Maybe we should make it +20.

I'd have to think about this myself, but how many other games allow you to play them with an unlimited number of anything, with no restrictions? I don't play Magic, never have, but can you bring as many cards as you want to play against someone? What about co-op games? Can you start with unlimited anything?

And for those against the limit, outside of "I like to play the game my way" or "this is just how it's been and I don't like change" what real in game concerns would you have? if Jeff did impose a limit of say 15 "Gear" Tokens, would that really make it "less fun" for you?

But maybe I'm overlooking something here, maybe I should try some builds with some limits and see how things shake out...

Bob Chasan wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: I don’t understand why some people want to impose their idea of “fun” on everyone else.

If you want to limit the number of slotless tokens you carry, then you absolutely should. If you want to carry a steamer trunk full, go for it. As long as it doesn’t have wheels, of course.

I’m going out on a limb and say most trunk players are not in PUGs. Set limits in your prefab parties if you want. Challenge yourself if you choose. If your friends annoy you, speak up.

But the game is supposed to be fun. You do you. Can I just do me?

+2

100% agree

Rob F wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: I don’t understand why some people want to impose their idea of “fun” on everyone else.

If you want to limit the number of slotless tokens you carry, then you absolutely should. If you want to carry a steamer trunk full, go for it. As long as it doesn’t have wheels, of course.

I’m going out on a limb and say most trunk players are not in PUGs. Set limits in your prefab parties if you want. Challenge yourself if you choose. If your friends annoy you, speak up.

But the game is supposed to be fun. You do you. Can I just do me?

I'm more concerned about the game balance aspect and adding a bit more realism to it. I don't think Slotless Tokens should have ever been created in the first place, but that's just me. Maybe Jeff should let us use 10 rings, one for each finger? And two pairs of shoes, one for each foot? If I proposed adding 8 rings to the game because it would make it more "fun" for me what do you think would happen? Would a coach in the room allow it? Why have slots in the first place?

And if I do what I do then maybe I do want the transmuted Kilt with +10 to all stats so I can go through the dungeon and show up the lower level players. Maybe we should make it +20.

I'd have to think about this myself, but how many other games allow you to play them with an unlimited number of anything, with no restrictions? I don't play Magic, never have, but can you bring as many cards as you want to play against someone? What about co-op games? Can you start with unlimited anything?

And for those against the limit, outside of "I like to play the game my way" or "this is just how it's been and I don't like change" what real in game concerns would you have? if Jeff did impose a limit of say 15 "Gear" Tokens, would that really make it "less fun" for you?

But maybe I'm overlooking something here, maybe I should try some builds with some limits and see how things shake out...

Have at it man, as long as your not messing up anyone else's fun I dont see why you shouldn't be allowed to do what you want with your runs. If I were coaching I'd let you through. As for standard runs/pugs 2 rings, and as many slotless items as you can remember.