TOPIC: Should Ghosting be allowed at GENCON?

Incognito wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Incognito wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: So why would anyone pay $60 for a ghost to hold a CoGF just so they can get one more treasure chip and/or 1 max HP?

Don't kid yourself. "Ghosts just hold synergy tokens" is the same as saying "no ghosts"

Well, this would allow for people who have one person ill just to absorb the cost among the other 9. I don't necessarily like the idea, but it is one idea that could solve one potential issue.

In that case, financially it would be to your advantage, if not TD's, to return the tickets for a refund.

Yes, that is true.

In fact, if players want to maximize their chances of doing a Nightmare / sealed pack / whatever other special run, they would return the tickets right before the run to minimize the chances of a random person picking them up. (Though at GenCon, the wait list could prevent this to some degree).

At TDC, I was talking to Kirk and Kim. I jokingly mentioned to Kirk that if he was willing to screw TD, he could return his extra tickets at the last minute. Kim was horrified at the prospect! I made it in half-jest because I wasn't seriously suggesting that Kirk would/should actually do it but I was half-serious because I was illustrating an actual problem with the current set-up (of no ghosting at TDC).

I think that True Dungeon needs to figure out which of these scenarios is preferable and by how much:

1. A TD ticket remains unsold (or is refunded)

This results in lost revenue for TD.

2. A TD ticket is bought and ghosted

This usually results in one player using multiple treasure enhancers, which may result in too much treasure being doled out. It may also reduce the quantity of tickets available to new players.

3. A TD ticket is bought and muled

This usually results in one player using multiple treasure enhancers, which may result in too much treasure being doled out. Sometimes it results in situations where veterans exploit new players. Sometimes it results in situations where new players get free admission (with no tokens) or get a more generous experience.


As it stands, it is not clear which of these scenarios is TD's first choice and which is its last choice. And by how much.

You're assuming that one of these three things is going to happen. It is assuming that a ticket that isn't bought as a Ghost or for a Mule will go unsold. I think the preferred scenario for True Dungeon is for a ticket to not be used for treasure farming (either by Ghost players or people) and is instead bought by a player. It seems that reducing the amount of treasure farming would increase the chance of players getting the tickets. Which, even if it did result in some unsold tickets, might help grow the player base.

Of course TD would prefer that TD be bought by a player who uses it for themselves.

But multiple people have suggested that the proposed no-sharing policy combined with a potential no-ghosting policy would result in TD not selling out all of their tickets. So it does sound like many people believe that for some tickets, TD may have to choose between those 3 scenarios.

Do you really think that GENCON isn't going to sell out tickets if Ghosting is disallowed or restricted and Token Sharing is reduced? I think they basically sold out in a few hours last year, and attendance should be significantly higher at GENCON this year. I think it's a pretty safe bet that GENCON will sell out regardless of whether Ghosting is allowed or not. And Jeff might even prefer it if some tickets were available for sale for a few weeks (not that I think that will happen), because those would likely go to new players.

Mike Steele wrote: Do you really think that GENCON isn't going to sell out tickets if Ghosting is disallowed or restricted and Token Sharing is reduced? I think they basically sold out in a few hours last year, and attendance should be significantly higher at GENCON this year. I think it's a pretty safe bet that GENCON will sell out regardless of whether Ghosting is allowed or not. And Jeff might even prefer it if some tickets were available for sale for a few weeks (not that I think that will happen), because those would likely go to new players.

In response, I cite the following posts in this very thread:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: The question Jeff will have to ask himself. "Is if ghosting is banned, is Jeff okay with A con not having all the runs sold out. "

That could happen

Maybe at a smaller con, but I think GENCON would still quickly sell out. It seems like demand is much higher than supply.

You would be surprised at how many tickets get turned back in once Gen Con starts. I know I have bought full runs multiple times a year after the con has started

Harlax wrote: I have coached many parties with multiple open spots on Sunday mornings.

At GHC we had about a solid 2 hours plus Friday afternoon with unfilled runs, or runs that were so undermanned that we consolodated serveral runs into one later run. Friday afternoon at WYC was similar, but not quite so sparse.

Kirk Bauer wrote: I suspect that if there was a "no lending treasure token" policy *and* a "no ghosting" policy at GenCon this year it would be the first year without a quick sellout. Perhaps eventually newbies would fill in the unsold runs but I'm not sure.

With hearing about people soloing runs, I was hoping to do the same, but paying $620 for the privellege of soloing (or dualing) is costly if I can't get all 180 treasure pulls...

Incognito wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Do you really think that GENCON isn't going to sell out tickets if Ghosting is disallowed or restricted and Token Sharing is reduced? I think they basically sold out in a few hours last year, and attendance should be significantly higher at GENCON this year. I think it's a pretty safe bet that GENCON will sell out regardless of whether Ghosting is allowed or not. And Jeff might even prefer it if some tickets were available for sale for a few weeks (not that I think that will happen), because those would likely go to new players.

In response, I cite the following posts in this very thread:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: The question Jeff will have to ask himself. "Is if ghosting is banned, is Jeff okay with A con not having all the runs sold out. "

That could happen

Maybe at a smaller con, but I think GENCON would still quickly sell out. It seems like demand is much higher than supply.

You would be surprised at how many tickets get turned back in once Gen Con starts. I know I have bought full runs multiple times a year after the con has started

Harlax wrote: I have coached many parties with multiple open spots on Sunday mornings.

At GHC we had about a solid 2 hours plus Friday afternoon with unfilled runs, or runs that were so undermanned that we consolodated serveral runs into one later run. Friday afternoon at WYC was similar, but not quite so sparse.

Kirk Bauer wrote: I suspect that if there was a "no lending treasure token" policy *and* a "no ghosting" policy at GenCon this year it would be the first year without a quick sellout. Perhaps eventually newbies would fill in the unsold runs but I'm not sure.

people turn tickets back in at GEN Con either they dont make it to the con, get busy, distance is too far or many other reason.
If gen con was sold out and used, There would not be a wait list area...or staff to get people to play

Mongo wrote: With hearing about people soloing runs, I was hoping to do the same, but paying $620 for the privellege of soloing (or dualing) is costly if I can't get all 180 treasure pulls...

when I fist did it, the treasure helped
I more did it for a challenge..i found out that it is easier to solo a dungeon than it is to go through with a group(depending on the puzzles)

I would like to try it nightmare on a combat run with me being Paladin and maybe dualing instead of soloing, with my brother or son as Cleric... also for challenge... but I am not willing to dish out $620 and only get 18 treasure tokens... or 36 between my son and I...

I even picked up 10 CoA's with this in mind and would hate it if it got nurfed so I only got the treasure for one...

Looking at just ticket sales you will miss the bigger picture, in my opinion. If there was no ghosting (and no sharing of treasure-enhancers) then there is a chance tickets won't sell out, and they definitely won't sell out as fast. A lot of tickets are bought by people like us.

But the bigger picture is dungeon difficulty. If ghosting is disallowed, then the number of 1-man, 2-man, 3-man, and 5-man runs will drastically decrease, possibly down to zero. As we all know the dungeon is too easy for many of our builds and those challenge runs are one way to use a UR+ build and get challenge out of it. If the most challenge I can have in the dungeon is a 10-man nightmare run, then a mix of URs and rares will be all we need to buy for tokens.

(excluding Grind)

So, maybe what is needed is an Epic dungeon level?

Wade Schwendemann wrote: So, maybe what is needed is an Epic dungeon level?

I think all that's needed as scaling up Nightmare.

The question is do you need a difficulty level that is challenging to people who have great rare and UR builds. I don't think you do. I think almost everyone who has a great rare and UR build also splashes it with relics, eldritch healing, etc..

So:

Normal = normal
Hardcore = a good challenge for strong red builds, maybe a UR or too
Nightmare = a good challenge for relic/eldritch level builds

The issue I see it is that right now Nightmare is a good challenge for UR level builds, and I don't think there is a big constituency of players at that gearing level. It's too hard for rare builds not matter how great, and not a challenge at relic+ with eldrich healing levels.

Kirk Bauer wrote: Looking at just ticket sales you will miss the bigger picture, in my opinion. If there was no ghosting (and no sharing of treasure-enhancers) then there is a chance tickets won't sell out, and they definitely won't sell out as fast. A lot of tickets are bought by people like us.

But the bigger picture is dungeon difficulty. If ghosting is disallowed, then the number of 1-man, 2-man, 3-man, and 5-man runs will drastically decrease, possibly down to zero. As we all know the dungeon is too easy for many of our builds and those challenge runs are one way to use a UR+ build and get challenge out of it. If the most challenge I can have in the dungeon is a 10-man nightmare run, then a mix of URs and rares will be all we need to buy for tokens.

(excluding Grind)

I don't think anyone was proposing that Ghosting be stopped, just that it either not get Treasure Coins, or get a reduced amount. You'd still be able to run with fewer players by having Ghost players. I don't really think the bigger picture is Dungeon Difficulty. There are ways to make the Dungeon more difficult for yourself. And if Nightmare really isn't difficult enough (and I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't), the best solution is probably to either make Nightmare more difficult or add an Epic difficulty level rather than enable Ghosting with full Treasure Coins to make smaller groups more easy.

Out of curiosity, how many tickets do you think are bought by people doing Ghosting, out of the 8,000 that will be sold at GENCON?

Matt wrote: would really like a clear issue declaration from Jeff or Druegar.

I don't make declarations. On occasion, Jeff may ask me to make a post on his behalf if he's in the weeds, but policy decisions are made by TD's Executive Directors: Jeff and Lori.

I'm not saying Matt was suggesting otherwise, but in case some folks were not sure, I felt like this should be explicitly stated.

Harlax wrote: The +1 for [ Medallion of Nobility ] was confirmed by a Coaching coordinator at GHC.

Look in the Coach's Guide , pages 14 and 22.