TOPIC: Should Ghosting be allowed at GENCON?

Mike Steele wrote:

Harlax wrote: Here are the problems I infer from what has been posted.

1) There are some counterfeit TE tokens out there.
2) There have been instances of TE tokens giving their benefit to muliple parties simulateously.
3) The volume of treasure going is higher than anticipated and this will cause problems - logistical, expense, etc.


Things I don't see as problems:

1) Ghosting. At least not yet.



My two coppers:

1) Keep it simple. Complex systems especillay ones requiring more time in the coaching room,, are liable to breakdown. Also, gamers are going to game. Any system is going to have unforeen issues and unintended consquences. All the more reason to keep it simple.

2) Consider the impact on need for volunteers. Many times I see pleas for additonal volunteers right up to event time. Adding more will have its challenges.

3) Deal making in the coaching room is, at the least, unseemly. At worst, it could leave a sour taste. I'd be ok with a rule against this.

4) I'm fine with the "don't lend TE tokens to strangers." It doesn't effect me at all. Some of my son's friends are strange, but they are not strangers. Team Synergy members are not strangers.

5) Coaches can't control what happens in the room in the 30 minutes before we get there. This makes 3 and 4 hard to enforce consistently. For that matter, how does a coach reliably determine who is friend/family versus stranger?

6) I think we can find a mechanism for carrying tokens through the dungeon. Some kind of secure lanyard device that makes the tokens visible, easily accessible and secure.

7) Keep it simple. It bears repeating.

I think there has been a fourth problem posted, that people are loaning out their TE Tokens multiple times to multiple people, often to strangers in things like pick-up groups, or to groups they aren't even running with. That's a problem even if it's not done simultaneously.

My second point was intended to cover that scenario, but I agree that it does not do so explicitly.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: So why would anyone pay $60 for a ghost to hold a CoGF just so they can get one more treasure chip and/or 1 max HP?

Don't kid yourself. "Ghosts just hold synergy tokens" is the same as saying "no ghosts"

Well, this would allow for people who have one person ill just to absorb the cost among the other 9. I don't necessarily like the idea, but it is one idea that could solve one potential issue.

In that case, financially it would be to your advantage, if not TD's, to return the tickets for a refund.

But then the ticket could be resold, ruining the best laid plans of a team that wanted to run on nightmare, or play specific classes, or., or , or ....

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: So why would anyone pay $60 for a ghost to hold a CoGF just so they can get one more treasure chip and/or 1 max HP?

Don't kid yourself. "Ghosts just hold synergy tokens" is the same as saying "no ghosts"

Well, this would allow for people who have one person ill just to absorb the cost among the other 9. I don't necessarily like the idea, but it is one idea that could solve one potential issue.

In that case, financially it would be to your advantage, if not TD's, to return the tickets for a refund.

And then they sell that ticket to a newbie who walks in to nine veterans doing a nightmare run...

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: If we do allow Ghosts to get Treasure Coins (and Completion Tokens and starting 10 Packs), I do think it would be a good idea to put a cap on the amount. Ideally, the value of what you'd get back would be right around what a ticket would cost...

Agreed, but I think that should be true for players as well, not just ghosts.

Because, in my mind, there is very little difference between a mule and a ghost. A mule is just a ghost with a body.

Unless you're a mind reader, you don't know if someone is a long-time friend or some rando doing it for a cut of the loot. Rules should not require ESP or sussing people's motives to be enforced.

I think the difference is that it's easy to tell if someone is using a Ghost player. It's impossible to tell if someone is on the run as a "mule" or not. As you said yourself, there's no way to know unless you're a mind reader. And anyone that does a True Dungeon run can get hooked on it, no matter what their motivation is for initially playing.

As the rules stand now, Ghost players get more favorable treatment. For people, you have to have them carry the TE Tokens themselves, which adds a significant element of risk of having them lost or (in the case of loaning to strangers) having them stolen. For Ghost Players, you get to carry all of the TE tokens yourself, with a greatly decreased chance of them being lost or stolen.

That's why it might be smart for Jeff to at least consider some sort of restrictions on Treasure Coins for Ghost Players. Otherwise, much of the TE Token abuse might just shift from loaning TE Tokens to people to buying out Ghost runs.

There's that word "abuse" again. It seems like something that used to be perfectly respectable and acceptable has suddenly gained an emotionally charged label.

The simplest thing would be the two-box solution, and all other rules stay the same as last year. Don't restrict or regulate farming, just make it less profitable. Maybe coupled with ghosts don't get +1 TC from MoN. Advantage: mules.

And anyone caught defrauding TD is banned for a year, if not reported to the police for petty theft. Because drawing loot you don't deserve is theft.

Do Ghost Players current get +1 TC from MoN? That doesn't seem right.

I was thinking about the banning / suspending thing, and I'm not sure how True Dungeon could enforce that. If someone else bought the tickets, then True Dungeon wouldn't even know that person was doing a Dungeon until they arrived. And unless they had everyone checking names versus some sort of "banned" list, I'm not sure they'd even know when the person arrived.

I guess True Dungeon could suspend XP for the year, but that only matters to some people.

Harlax wrote: 3) The volume of treasure going is higher than anticipated and this will cause problems - logistical, expense, etc.

You know it's funny that some people are focused on the Ioun Stone Silver Nugget as creating this problem.

Matt Hayward's dredging up of old posts provides evidence that at least some of us have been warning about this problem (too much treasure being handed out, which increases costs to TD) since the HoP, and that was one (of many arguments) that was used as reasons why it should not be reprinted (before the actual no-reprint policy was put in place).

Mike Steele wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: If we do allow Ghosts to get Treasure Coins (and Completion Tokens and starting 10 Packs), I do think it would be a good idea to put a cap on the amount. Ideally, the value of what you'd get back would be right around what a ticket would cost...

Agreed, but I think that should be true for players as well, not just ghosts.

Because, in my mind, there is very little difference between a mule and a ghost. A mule is just a ghost with a body.

Unless you're a mind reader, you don't know if someone is a long-time friend or some rando doing it for a cut of the loot. Rules should not require ESP or sussing people's motives to be enforced.

I think the difference is that it's easy to tell if someone is using a Ghost player. It's impossible to tell if someone is on the run as a "mule" or not. As you said yourself, there's no way to know unless you're a mind reader. And anyone that does a True Dungeon run can get hooked on it, no matter what their motivation is for initially playing.

As the rules stand now, Ghost players get more favorable treatment. For people, you have to have them carry the TE Tokens themselves, which adds a significant element of risk of having them lost or (in the case of loaning to strangers) having them stolen. For Ghost Players, you get to carry all of the TE tokens yourself, with a greatly decreased chance of them being lost or stolen.

That's why it might be smart for Jeff to at least consider some sort of restrictions on Treasure Coins for Ghost Players. Otherwise, much of the TE Token abuse might just shift from loaning TE Tokens to people to buying out Ghost runs.

There's that word "abuse" again. It seems like something that used to be perfectly respectable and acceptable has suddenly gained an emotionally charged label.

The simplest thing would be the two-box solution, and all other rules stay the same as last year. Don't restrict or regulate farming, just make it less profitable. Maybe coupled with ghosts don't get +1 TC from MoN. Advantage: mules.

And anyone caught defrauding TD is banned for a year, if not reported to the police for petty theft. Because drawing loot you don't deserve is theft.

Do Ghost Players current get +1 TC from MoN? That doesn't seem right.

I was thinking about the banning / suspending thing, and I'm not sure how True Dungeon could enforce that. If someone else bought the tickets, then True Dungeon wouldn't even know that person was doing a Dungeon until they arrived. And unless they had everyone checking names versus some sort of "banned" list, I'm not sure they'd even know when the person arrived.

I guess True Dungeon could suspend XP for the year, but that only matters to some people.

The +1 for MoN was confirmed by a Coaching coordinator at GHC. I'd be fine with it either way.

Harlax wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Harlax wrote: Here are the problems I infer from what has been posted.

1) There are some counterfeit TE tokens out there.
2) There have been instances of TE tokens giving their benefit to muliple parties simulateously.
3) The volume of treasure going is higher than anticipated and this will cause problems - logistical, expense, etc.


Things I don't see as problems:

1) Ghosting. At least not yet.



My two coppers:

1) Keep it simple. Complex systems especillay ones requiring more time in the coaching room,, are liable to breakdown. Also, gamers are going to game. Any system is going to have unforeen issues and unintended consquences. All the more reason to keep it simple.

2) Consider the impact on need for volunteers. Many times I see pleas for additonal volunteers right up to event time. Adding more will have its challenges.

3) Deal making in the coaching room is, at the least, unseemly. At worst, it could leave a sour taste. I'd be ok with a rule against this.

4) I'm fine with the "don't lend TE tokens to strangers." It doesn't effect me at all. Some of my son's friends are strange, but they are not strangers. Team Synergy members are not strangers.

5) Coaches can't control what happens in the room in the 30 minutes before we get there. This makes 3 and 4 hard to enforce consistently. For that matter, how does a coach reliably determine who is friend/family versus stranger?

6) I think we can find a mechanism for carrying tokens through the dungeon. Some kind of secure lanyard device that makes the tokens visible, easily accessible and secure.

7) Keep it simple. It bears repeating.

I think there has been a fourth problem posted, that people are loaning out their TE Tokens multiple times to multiple people, often to strangers in things like pick-up groups, or to groups they aren't even running with. That's a problem even if it's not done simultaneously.

My second point was intended to cover that scenario, but I agree that it does not do so explicitly.

I only called it out specifically because there were some in previous discussions that felt that everything except TE Tokens being used simultaneously was OK.

Kirk Bauer wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: So why would anyone pay $60 for a ghost to hold a CoGF just so they can get one more treasure chip and/or 1 max HP?

Don't kid yourself. "Ghosts just hold synergy tokens" is the same as saying "no ghosts"

Well, this would allow for people who have one person ill just to absorb the cost among the other 9. I don't necessarily like the idea, but it is one idea that could solve one potential issue.

In that case, financially it would be to your advantage, if not TD's, to return the tickets for a refund.

And then they sell that ticket to a newbie who walks in to nine veterans doing a nightmare run...

That's why I said "financially"

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: So why would anyone pay $60 for a ghost to hold a CoGF just so they can get one more treasure chip and/or 1 max HP?

Don't kid yourself. "Ghosts just hold synergy tokens" is the same as saying "no ghosts"

Well, this would allow for people who have one person ill just to absorb the cost among the other 9. I don't necessarily like the idea, but it is one idea that could solve one potential issue.

In that case, financially it would be to your advantage, if not TD's, to return the tickets for a refund.

And then they sell that ticket to a newbie who walks in to nine veterans doing a nightmare run...

That's why I said "financially"

You are correct.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: So why would anyone pay $60 for a ghost to hold a CoGF just so they can get one more treasure chip and/or 1 max HP?

Don't kid yourself. "Ghosts just hold synergy tokens" is the same as saying "no ghosts"

Well, this would allow for people who have one person ill just to absorb the cost among the other 9. I don't necessarily like the idea, but it is one idea that could solve one potential issue.

In that case, financially it would be to your advantage, if not TD's, to return the tickets for a refund.

Yes, that is true.

In fact, if players want to maximize their chances of doing a Nightmare / sealed pack / whatever other special run, they would return the tickets right before the run to minimize the chances of a random person picking them up. (Though at GenCon, the wait list could prevent this to some degree).

At TDC, I was talking to Kirk and Kim. I jokingly mentioned to Kirk that if he was willing to screw TD, he could return his extra tickets at the last minute. Kim was horrified at the prospect! I made it in half-jest because I wasn't seriously suggesting that Kirk would/should actually do it but I was half-serious because I was illustrating an actual problem with the current set-up (of no ghosting at TDC).

I think that True Dungeon needs to figure out which of these scenarios is preferable and by how much:

1. A TD ticket remains unsold (or is refunded)

This results in lost revenue for TD.

2. A TD ticket is bought and ghosted

This usually results in one player using multiple treasure enhancers, which may result in too much treasure being doled out. It may also reduce the quantity of tickets available to new players.

3. A TD ticket is bought and muled

This usually results in one player using multiple treasure enhancers, which may result in too much treasure being doled out. Sometimes it results in situations where veterans exploit new players. Sometimes it results in situations where new players get free admission (with no tokens) or get a more generous experience.


As it stands, it is not clear which of these scenarios is TD's first choice and which is its last choice. And by how much.

Incognito wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: So why would anyone pay $60 for a ghost to hold a CoGF just so they can get one more treasure chip and/or 1 max HP?

Don't kid yourself. "Ghosts just hold synergy tokens" is the same as saying "no ghosts"

Well, this would allow for people who have one person ill just to absorb the cost among the other 9. I don't necessarily like the idea, but it is one idea that could solve one potential issue.

In that case, financially it would be to your advantage, if not TD's, to return the tickets for a refund.

Yes, that is true.

In fact, if players want to maximize their chances of doing a Nightmare / sealed pack / whatever other special run, they would return the tickets right before the run to minimize the chances of a random person picking them up. (Though at GenCon, the wait list could prevent this to some degree).

At TDC, I was talking to Kirk and Kim. I jokingly mentioned to Kirk that if he was willing to screw TD, he could return his extra tickets at the last minute. Kim was horrified at the prospect! I made it in half-jest because I wasn't seriously suggesting that Kirk would/should actually do it but I was half-serious because I was illustrating an actual problem with the current set-up (of no ghosting at TDC).

I think that True Dungeon needs to figure out which of these scenarios is preferable and by how much:

1. A TD ticket remains unsold (or is refunded)

This results in lost revenue for TD.

2. A TD ticket is bought and ghosted

This usually results in one player using multiple treasure enhancers, which may result in too much treasure being doled out. It may also reduce the quantity of tickets available to new players.

3. A TD ticket is bought and muled

This usually results in one player using multiple treasure enhancers, which may result in too much treasure being doled out. Sometimes it results in situations where veterans exploit new players. Sometimes it results in situations where new players get free admission (with no tokens) or get a more generous experience.


As it stands, it is not clear which of these scenarios is TD's first choice and which is its last choice. And by how much.

You're assuming that one of these three things is going to happen. It is assuming that a ticket that isn't bought as a Ghost or for a Mule will go unsold. I think the preferred scenario for True Dungeon is for a ticket to not be used for treasure farming (either by Ghost players or people) and is instead bought by a player. It seems that reducing the amount of treasure farming would increase the chance of players getting the tickets. Which, even if it did result in some unsold tickets, might help grow the player base.

Mike Steele wrote:

Incognito wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: So why would anyone pay $60 for a ghost to hold a CoGF just so they can get one more treasure chip and/or 1 max HP?

Don't kid yourself. "Ghosts just hold synergy tokens" is the same as saying "no ghosts"

Well, this would allow for people who have one person ill just to absorb the cost among the other 9. I don't necessarily like the idea, but it is one idea that could solve one potential issue.

In that case, financially it would be to your advantage, if not TD's, to return the tickets for a refund.

Yes, that is true.

In fact, if players want to maximize their chances of doing a Nightmare / sealed pack / whatever other special run, they would return the tickets right before the run to minimize the chances of a random person picking them up. (Though at GenCon, the wait list could prevent this to some degree).

At TDC, I was talking to Kirk and Kim. I jokingly mentioned to Kirk that if he was willing to screw TD, he could return his extra tickets at the last minute. Kim was horrified at the prospect! I made it in half-jest because I wasn't seriously suggesting that Kirk would/should actually do it but I was half-serious because I was illustrating an actual problem with the current set-up (of no ghosting at TDC).

I think that True Dungeon needs to figure out which of these scenarios is preferable and by how much:

1. A TD ticket remains unsold (or is refunded)

This results in lost revenue for TD.

2. A TD ticket is bought and ghosted

This usually results in one player using multiple treasure enhancers, which may result in too much treasure being doled out. It may also reduce the quantity of tickets available to new players.

3. A TD ticket is bought and muled

This usually results in one player using multiple treasure enhancers, which may result in too much treasure being doled out. Sometimes it results in situations where veterans exploit new players. Sometimes it results in situations where new players get free admission (with no tokens) or get a more generous experience.


As it stands, it is not clear which of these scenarios is TD's first choice and which is its last choice. And by how much.

You're assuming that one of these three things is going to happen. It is assuming that a ticket that isn't bought as a Ghost or for a Mule will go unsold. I think the preferred scenario for True Dungeon is for a ticket to not be used for treasure farming (either by Ghost players or people) and is instead bought by a player. It seems that reducing the amount of treasure farming would increase the chance of players getting the tickets. Which, even if it did result in some unsold tickets, might help grow the player base.

Of course TD would prefer that TD be bought by a player who uses it for themselves.

But multiple people have suggested that the proposed no-sharing policy combined with a potential no-ghosting policy would result in TD not selling out all of their tickets. So it does sound like many people believe that for some tickets, TD may have to choose between those 3 scenarios.