TOPIC: Should Ghosting be allowed at GENCON?

Raven wrote:

Joshua Long wrote: So, I would echo another suggestion that was mentioned earlier where a person can only have one ghost. (This would result in up to 5 ghosts in a party, one per real person.)

Though based on the TDC experience it seems like just removing ghosting completely could be on the table. (If we are going for the simplest solution this is the one I could see happening...)

Yeah, I think a "no Ghosting" rule is the simplest. But I really really don't like it, for several reasons:

1) Nightmare/Hardcore groups.
If you aren't allowed to ghost, then you are effectively forced to accept a stand-by player into your run. That one single player could VETO an entire groups planned run (a run set up on the forums months ahead of time).

Or, you could hand in the ticket and run with an empty but non-Ghosted slot, in which case:

2) Soaking the Cost
GenCon's $54 price tag for TD tickets is nothing to sneeze at. That's an awful lot to ask a person to soak, especially in the case where it was unintentional/unexpected occurrence.

3) Synergies.
Token design and sales have routinely taken advantage of "group synergy" to push token sales (Charm of Synergy, CoGF, Cabal, Phalanx, etc). If people who play regularly also run into ghosting scenarios regularly (and in my experience, they do) then there needs to be a way to use these tokens in order to keep their perceived value high.

4) Deliberately Undermanned Parties.
Some people like going through the dungeon with fewer players. But True Dungeon had to move to 10 players per party in order to keep up with the costs of bigger venues. This has actually caused huge forum debates in the past as people complained and ranted that party sizes are too large and rooms are too crowded. But with the ability to Ghost, parties can set their own size (7 is popular, as are the 5-man runs) and enjoy a dungeon experience similar to the original runs back in 2003. And some parties do it just for the challenge! But to offset the cost (no one really wants to pay $100+ for a single dungeon run) people will ghost for treasure.

And before you say "play with fewer tokens/do sealed pack runs if you want a challenge!" keep in mind that TD wants to incentivize token sales, and it's counter-productive to encourage people to spend $54 on a single ticket run and 10 pack, when they could spend $250 on a PYP; or better yet: $500 on 2 PYPs with the intent to ghost the spare.

So yeah, while eliminating Ghosting would be simplest, it would also lead to a lot of complications.

But what you said about "1 ghost per player" .... I think that would cover many of these scenarios. The odds of more than 50% of a party being ill and unable to make it are low (it can happen, and has, but it's very corner-case) and would probably be better solved by selling the remaining tickets to Stand-by players.

The place where a 1-ghost-per-player rule would hurt the most would be those individuals running solo (or duo/trio) for Prestige; and Farmers.

Good points. I've certainly enjoyed doing 5-person runs for the challenge and the chance to do a run with a small group of friends.

Nor crazy about the idea of token farming, though.

Beertram wrote:
I'm sure Jeff and the rest of us appreciate players like you who can and will buy out runs to support this awesome game. ...

As for ghosting at GenCon, I really have no opinion either way. I wish I knew about ghosting a couple years ago when I ate a bunch of tickets after my friends from California all cancelled less than a week before GenCon then over-nighted me the tickets hoping I could sell them quickly. (Note to self, Thursday early morning tickets are not easy to sell).

I never even considered getting a second COA. I supply the tokens for all of my local friends on 1 or 2 runs a year, but they each get 3 treasure tokens and I get my 17+. Most of my friends hand me their 3 treasure token draws after the run so I can equip them the next year. I guess I still see TD as a passion and not as method of income.

I've been in similar boat, i usually host a run or 2 where i gear friends and acquaintances and have had to ghost on zero notice due to unexpected drop out (last year lost a party member between coaching/training room...). Never really gave thought or effort to greed besides the CoA/nugget i own.

No matter how this shakes out, a coherent enforceable rules need to announced ahead of time possibly into the event listings.

Here are the problems I infer from what has been posted.

1) There are some counterfeit TE tokens out there.
2) There have been instances of TE tokens giving their benefit to muliple parties simulateously.
3) The volume of treasure going is higher than anticipated and this will cause problems - logistical, expense, etc.


Things I don't see as problems:

1) Ghosting. At least not yet.



My two coppers:

1) Keep it simple. Complex systems especillay ones requiring more time in the coaching room,, are liable to breakdown. Also, gamers are going to game. Any system is going to have unforeen issues and unintended consquences. All the more reason to keep it simple.

2) Consider the impact on need for volunteers. Many times I see pleas for additonal volunteers right up to event time. Adding more will have its challenges.

3) Deal making in the coaching room is, at the least, unseemly. At worst, it could leave a sour taste. I'd be ok with a rule against this.

4) I'm fine with the "don't lend TE tokens to strangers." It doesn't effect me at all. Some of my son's friends are strange, but they are not strangers. Team Synergy members are not strangers.

5) Coaches can't control what happens in the room in the 30 minutes before we get there. This makes 3 and 4 hard to enforce consistently. For that matter, how does a coach reliably determine who is friend/family versus stranger?

6) I think we can find a mechanism for carrying tokens through the dungeon. Some kind of secure lanyard device that makes the tokens visible, easily accessible and secure.

7) Keep it simple. It bears repeating.

Harlax wrote: Here are the problems I infer from what has been posted.

1) There are some counterfeit TE tokens out there.
2) There have been instances of TE tokens giving their benefit to muliple parties simulateously.
3) The volume of treasure going is higher than anticipated and this will cause problems - logistical, expense, etc.


Things I don't see as problems:

1) Ghosting. At least not yet.



My two coppers:

1) Keep it simple. Complex systems especillay ones requiring more time in the coaching room,, are liable to breakdown. Also, gamers are going to game. Any system is going to have unforeen issues and unintended consquences. All the more reason to keep it simple.

2) Consider the impact on need for volunteers. Many times I see pleas for additonal volunteers right up to event time. Adding more will have its challenges.

3) Deal making in the coaching room is, at the least, unseemly. At worst, it could leave a sour taste. I'd be ok with a rule against this.

4) I'm fine with the "don't lend TE tokens to strangers." It doesn't effect me at all. Some of my son's friends are strange, but they are not strangers. Team Synergy members are not strangers.

5) Coaches can't control what happens in the room in the 30 minutes before we get there. This makes 3 and 4 hard to enforce consistently. For that matter, how does a coach reliably determine who is friend/family versus stranger?

6) I think we can find a mechanism for carrying tokens through the dungeon. Some kind of secure lanyard device that makes the tokens visible, easily accessible and secure.

7) Keep it simple. It bears repeating.

If we need to do this then Harlax is right... KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid).

Mike Steele wrote: If we do allow Ghosts to get Treasure Coins (and Completion Tokens and starting 10 Packs), I do think it would be a good idea to put a cap on the amount. Ideally, the value of what you'd get back would be right around what a ticket would cost...

Agreed, but I think that should be true for players as well, not just ghosts.

Because, in my mind, there is very little difference between a mule and a ghost. A mule is just a ghost with a body.

Unless you're a mind reader, you don't know if someone is a long-time friend or some rando doing it for a cut of the loot. Rules should not require ESP or sussing people's motives to be enforced.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: If we do allow Ghosts to get Treasure Coins (and Completion Tokens and starting 10 Packs), I do think it would be a good idea to put a cap on the amount. Ideally, the value of what you'd get back would be right around what a ticket would cost...

Agreed, but I think that should be true for players as well, not just ghosts.

Because, in my mind, there is very little difference between a mule and a ghost. A mule is just a ghost with a body.

Unless you're a mind reader, you don't know if someone is a long-time friend or some rando doing it for a cut of the loot. Rules should not require ESP or sussing people's motives to be enforced.

I think the difference is that it's easy to tell if someone is using a Ghost player. It's impossible to tell if someone is on the run as a "mule" or not. As you said yourself, there's no way to know unless you're a mind reader. And anyone that does a True Dungeon run can get hooked on it, no matter what their motivation is for initially playing.

As the rules stand now, Ghost players get more favorable treatment. For people, you have to have them carry the TE Tokens themselves, which adds a significant element of risk of having them lost or (in the case of loaning to strangers) having them stolen. For Ghost Players, you get to carry all of the TE tokens yourself, with a greatly decreased chance of them being lost or stolen.

That's why it might be smart for Jeff to at least consider some sort of restrictions on Treasure Coins for Ghost Players. Otherwise, much of the TE Token abuse might just shift from loaning TE Tokens to people to buying out Ghost runs.

Harlax wrote: Here are the problems I infer from what has been posted.

1) There are some counterfeit TE tokens out there.
2) There have been instances of TE tokens giving their benefit to muliple parties simulateously.
3) The volume of treasure going is higher than anticipated and this will cause problems - logistical, expense, etc.


Things I don't see as problems:

1) Ghosting. At least not yet.



My two coppers:

1) Keep it simple. Complex systems especillay ones requiring more time in the coaching room,, are liable to breakdown. Also, gamers are going to game. Any system is going to have unforeen issues and unintended consquences. All the more reason to keep it simple.

2) Consider the impact on need for volunteers. Many times I see pleas for additonal volunteers right up to event time. Adding more will have its challenges.

3) Deal making in the coaching room is, at the least, unseemly. At worst, it could leave a sour taste. I'd be ok with a rule against this.

4) I'm fine with the "don't lend TE tokens to strangers." It doesn't effect me at all. Some of my son's friends are strange, but they are not strangers. Team Synergy members are not strangers.

5) Coaches can't control what happens in the room in the 30 minutes before we get there. This makes 3 and 4 hard to enforce consistently. For that matter, how does a coach reliably determine who is friend/family versus stranger?

6) I think we can find a mechanism for carrying tokens through the dungeon. Some kind of secure lanyard device that makes the tokens visible, easily accessible and secure.

7) Keep it simple. It bears repeating.

I think there has been a fourth problem posted, that people are loaning out their TE Tokens multiple times to multiple people, often to strangers in things like pick-up groups, or to groups they aren't even running with. That's a problem even if it's not done simultaneously.

Mike Steele wrote: I think there has been a fourth problem posted, that people are loaning out their TE Tokens multiple times to multiple people, often to strangers in things like pick-up groups, or to groups they aren't even running with. That's a problem even if it's not done simultaneously.

And - I'd imagine - if this is happening, it is not being loaned, but rented.

I can't imagine someone going through all that effort for no reward - so it's probably a treasure split.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I think there has been a fourth problem posted, that people are loaning out their TE Tokens multiple times to multiple people, often to strangers in things like pick-up groups, or to groups they aren't even running with. That's a problem even if it's not done simultaneously.

And - I'd imagine - if this is happening, it is not being loaned, but rented.

I can't imagine someone going through all that effort for no reward - so it's probably a treasure split.

Matthew, I think you're exactly right in most cases. Some people with 10 CoA and 10 ISSN are finding as many groups as they can to run with and split the profits. Sometimes they aren't even on the run.

Mike Steele wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: If we do allow Ghosts to get Treasure Coins (and Completion Tokens and starting 10 Packs), I do think it would be a good idea to put a cap on the amount. Ideally, the value of what you'd get back would be right around what a ticket would cost...

Agreed, but I think that should be true for players as well, not just ghosts.

Because, in my mind, there is very little difference between a mule and a ghost. A mule is just a ghost with a body.

Unless you're a mind reader, you don't know if someone is a long-time friend or some rando doing it for a cut of the loot. Rules should not require ESP or sussing people's motives to be enforced.

I think the difference is that it's easy to tell if someone is using a Ghost player. It's impossible to tell if someone is on the run as a "mule" or not. As you said yourself, there's no way to know unless you're a mind reader. And anyone that does a True Dungeon run can get hooked on it, no matter what their motivation is for initially playing.

As the rules stand now, Ghost players get more favorable treatment. For people, you have to have them carry the TE Tokens themselves, which adds a significant element of risk of having them lost or (in the case of loaning to strangers) having them stolen. For Ghost Players, you get to carry all of the TE tokens yourself, with a greatly decreased chance of them being lost or stolen.

That's why it might be smart for Jeff to at least consider some sort of restrictions on Treasure Coins for Ghost Players. Otherwise, much of the TE Token abuse might just shift from loaning TE Tokens to people to buying out Ghost runs.

There's that word "abuse" again. It seems like something that used to be perfectly respectable and acceptable has suddenly gained an emotionally charged label.

The simplest thing would be the two-box solution, and all other rules stay the same as last year. Don't restrict or regulate farming, just make it less profitable. Maybe coupled with ghosts don't get +1 TC from MoN. Advantage: mules.

And anyone caught defrauding TD is banned for a year, if not reported to the police for petty theft. Because drawing loot you don't deserve is theft.

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: So why would anyone pay $60 for a ghost to hold a CoGF just so they can get one more treasure chip and/or 1 max HP?

Don't kid yourself. "Ghosts just hold synergy tokens" is the same as saying "no ghosts"

Well, this would allow for people who have one person ill just to absorb the cost among the other 9. I don't necessarily like the idea, but it is one idea that could solve one potential issue.

In that case, financially it would be to your advantage, if not TD's, to return the tickets for a refund.

I'm glad Mike started this thread because lots of people have made some very good points on the topic. Ultimately it would be great to hear from Jeff himself as to his thoughts on ghosting and treasue. In another thread Matt posted a comment that Jeff had made which reflected on his thoughts of the creation of TE's and how it has affected the game. My unconfirmed thoughts on a few things are:

- I don't believe Jeff ever intended for one player to wind up with 181 or whatever treasure pulls after playing a game of True Dungeon.

- By printing current TE's that don't stack I assume his intent is to limit the amount of treasure pulls a person can have after playing a game of True Dungeon.

- Ghosting isn't something new but I don't believe Jeff originally intended for a group of tickets to be sold so only one person could experience and enjoy the game of True Dungeon.

- No one can say for sure whether or not the game of True Dungeon will still sell out at Gen Con if a no ghosting policy is put in place. The only way to really find out is to put the policy in place and then see what happens.

If Jeff ever implements a no ghosting policy or a treasure cap per player per game I will continue to purchase Tokens at my current rate (because I love Tokens!) and continue to play the game of True Dungeon. My most memorable experiences playing the game that Jeff created have had noting to do with treasure or Tokens and they were not the reasons I chose to play in the first place.