TOPIC: Should Ghosting be allowed at GENCON?

Joshua Long wrote: So, I would echo another suggestion that was mentioned earlier where a person can only have one ghost. (This would result in up to 5 ghosts in a party, one per real person.)

Though based on the TDC experience it seems like just removing ghosting completely could be on the table. (If we are going for the simplest solution this is the one I could see happening...)

Yeah, I think a "no Ghosting" rule is the simplest. But I really really don't like it, for several reasons:

1) Nightmare/Hardcore groups.
If you aren't allowed to ghost, then you are effectively forced to accept a stand-by player into your run. That one single player could VETO an entire groups planned run (a run set up on the forums months ahead of time).

Or, you could hand in the ticket and run with an empty but non-Ghosted slot, in which case:

2) Soaking the Cost
GenCon's $54 price tag for TD tickets is nothing to sneeze at. That's an awful lot to ask a person to soak, especially in the case where it was unintentional/unexpected occurrence.

3) Synergies.
Token design and sales have routinely taken advantage of "group synergy" to push token sales (Charm of Synergy, CoGF, Cabal, Phalanx, etc). If people who play regularly also run into ghosting scenarios regularly (and in my experience, they do) then there needs to be a way to use these tokens in order to keep their perceived value high.

4) Deliberately Undermanned Parties.
Some people like going through the dungeon with fewer players. But True Dungeon had to move to 10 players per party in order to keep up with the costs of bigger venues. This has actually caused huge forum debates in the past as people complained and ranted that party sizes are too large and rooms are too crowded. But with the ability to Ghost, parties can set their own size (7 is popular, as are the 5-man runs) and enjoy a dungeon experience similar to the original runs back in 2003. And some parties do it just for the challenge! But to offset the cost (no one really wants to pay $100+ for a single dungeon run) people will ghost for treasure.

And before you say "play with fewer tokens/do sealed pack runs if you want a challenge!" keep in mind that TD wants to incentivize token sales, and it's counter-productive to encourage people to spend $54 on a single ticket run and 10 pack, when they could spend $250 on a PYP; or better yet: $500 on 2 PYPs with the intent to ghost the spare.

So yeah, while eliminating Ghosting would be simplest, it would also lead to a lot of complications.

But what you said about "1 ghost per player" .... I think that would cover many of these scenarios. The odds of more than 50% of a party being ill and unable to make it are low (it can happen, and has, but it's very corner-case) and would probably be better solved by selling the remaining tickets to Stand-by players.

The place where a 1-ghost-per-player rule would hurt the most would be those individuals running solo (or duo/trio) for Prestige; and Farmers.

Brad Mortensen wrote: We're only allowed one "+1" a month, aren't we?

Sorry, it was just a stupid joke. I was just trying to say I liked your post. A lot.

Ah, thanks : )
I got too wrapped up in Token Math and was trying to figure out how the +1 applied to Treasure enhancers or Treasure chip quotas!

(and thanks Mike for being quick to recognize the intent, too.)

This was something Kent said in the Official Ruling thread, but I figured I'd C&P it over here into Ghosting for discussion:

kurtreznor wrote: Ive seen multiple mentions of ghosting on this thread, and i would like to request that it not be outright banned. If it needs some limitation, i suggest either a treasure cap on ghosts (perhaps 10 max) or limit each player to only one ghost can get treasue.

I personally like the one ghost per person option because then we avoid the question/argument of what the cap should be and the difficulty of administering it. But i also realize the one ghost per person rule is perfect for me...so more input is welcome.

For me, there have been two scenarios i have ghosted a ticket:
1. 5 person run. Each person has two tickets so you can have a small party. The ghost treasue helps mitigate the $100+ price of doing this.
2. Our group has all 10 tickets but is missing a person (often due to cancellation). I would prefer to find someone for this ticket, but we need someone who agrees with our already selected difficulty and classes. If we dont find a person, we ghost the ticket to avoid a random walk-on that could ruin our plans.

The idea of a Treasure Cap on ghosts has been suggested before, and I know a lot of people don't like it, but it occurred to me: What about a system of diminishing returns?

ie:
* Everyone is allowed 1 Ghost, which can receive treasure based on your TEs (to a max of 20 - so, no real max this year, but in future years this may be relevant)
* You can have a second Ghost if needed, but there is a Treasure Cap of 10 TC on that ghost.
* You can have a 3rd ghost, but there is a treasure cap of 5 TC on that ghost.

Or,
* Everyone is allowed 1 Ghost, which can receive max treasure (based on your TE's)
* Any ghosts beyond that can not be redeemed for a wristband, but the ticket can be turned in to receive X packs of treasure tokens (I think last GenCon they were offering 6 packs of tokens if you turned in your ticket but didn't ghost it)

It's not as simple a system as "no Ghosting" or "only 1 per player" but it would allow Prestige runs to be possible without being quite so expensive, while still not incentivizing treasure farming.

Mike Steele wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: The question Jeff will have to ask himself. "Is if ghosting is banned, is Jeff okay with A con not having all the runs sold out. "

That could happen

Maybe at a smaller con, but I think GENCON would still quickly sell out. It seems like demand is much higher than supply.

You would be surprised at how many tickets get turned back in once Gen Con starts. I know I have bought full runs multiple times a year after the con has started

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: The question Jeff will have to ask himself. "Is if ghosting is banned, is Jeff okay with A con not having all the runs sold out. "

That could happen

Maybe at a smaller con, but I think GENCON would still quickly sell out. It seems like demand is much higher than supply.

You would be surprised at how many tickets get turned back in once Gen Con starts. I know I have bought full runs multiple times a year after the con has started

I have coached many parties with multiple open spots on Sunday mornings.

At GHC we had about a solid 2 hours plus Friday afternoon with unfilled runs, or runs that were so undermanned that we consolodated serveral runs into one later run. Friday afternoon at WYC was similar, but not quite so sparse.

balthasar wrote: It is tough to set a rule that would not penalize the odd person that does not make it due to illness or something out of their control. If the ticket/s are in hand, the party should be allowed to equip synergistic tokens on the 'ghosts'. Claiming more than the starter pack and three chips is where it starts to get a little slippery. I trust that Jeff will do the best thing for the game and await any possible official statement.

Haven't read the whole thread but favor this idea...the ticket includes a starter pack and 3 treasure chips, seems fair to be able to equip synergistic tokens so those that are actually there aren't penalized, but don't allow the ghost to benefit from the extra pulls.

Case in point, last year one of our normal team had another commitment that came up long after we did our GENCON planning, but took priority and he couldn't arrive until late Thursday. He had to miss our first run, now luckily we were able to find a replacement. But if we hadn't been able to I would have felt bad for everyone else who missed out on an extra pull through no fault of there own.

Now you may say it would be fairer to allow someone from the waiting list, but I don't believe a player should be able to be forced on you, unless you are open to it.

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: The question Jeff will have to ask himself. "Is if ghosting is banned, is Jeff okay with A con not having all the runs sold out. "

That could happen

I suspect that if there was a "no lending treasure token" policy *and* a "no ghosting" policy at GenCon this year it would be the first year without a quick sellout. Perhaps eventually newbies would fill in the unsold runs but I'm not sure.

I am strongly against eliminating ghosting. I would love to make sure it is implemented consistently though.

My take is; if you have 2 tickets or 10 tickets, you get 2 wristbands or 10 wristbands. If you have 2 TEs or 10 TEs then you get the associated treasure. The only downside is it takes up slots that could have been filled with players. But the upside is it allows for us veterans do better enjoy the game, with things like 5-player, 3-player, or 1-player runs. It also mitigates the risk of buying full runs of 10 tickets and having players not show up.

Raven summed it up perfectly. There are many good reasons to allow ghosting.

So why would anyone pay $60 for a ghost to hold a CoGF just so they can get one more treasure chip and/or 1 max HP?

Don't kid yourself. "Ghosts just hold synergy tokens" is the same as saying "no ghosts"

Brad Mortensen wrote: So why would anyone pay $60 for a ghost to hold a CoGF just so they can get one more treasure chip and/or 1 max HP?

Don't kid yourself. "Ghosts just hold synergy tokens" is the same as saying "no ghosts"

Well, this would allow for people who have one person ill just to absorb the cost among the other 9. I don't necessarily like the idea, but it is one idea that could solve one potential issue.

If we do allow Ghosts to get Treasure Coins (and Completion Tokens and starting 10 Packs), I do think it would be a good idea to put a cap on the amount. Ideally, the value of what you'd get back would be right around what a ticket would cost. That way, if someone wanted / needed to have a Ghost player they'd have that option. But, if someone was doing it strictly for token farming, the incentive wouldn't be there, because they'd basically just be breaking even.

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: The question Jeff will have to ask himself. "Is if ghosting is banned, is Jeff okay with A con not having all the runs sold out. "

That could happen

Maybe at a smaller con, but I think GENCON would still quickly sell out. It seems like demand is much higher than supply.

You would be surprised at how many tickets get turned back in once Gen Con starts. I know I have bought full runs multiple times a year after the con has started

I'm sure Jeff and the rest of us appreciate players like you who can and will buy out runs to support this awesome game. I remember you buying out several runs at WYC a few years ago and I wish I could have contributed at the time. The most remember-able of those was the week-old-gas-station-sushi-run which I had the honor of participating in. I can still see the confused face of the DM of the first room as she walked up front to see what had happened.

As for ghosting at GenCon, I really have no opinion either way. I wish I knew about ghosting a couple years ago when I ate a bunch of tickets after my friends from California all cancelled less than a week before GenCon then over-nighted me the tickets hoping I could sell them quickly. (Note to self, Thursday early morning tickets are not easy to sell).

I never even considered getting a second COA. I supply the tokens for all of my local friends on 1 or 2 runs a year, but they each get 3 treasure tokens and I get my 17+. Most of my friends hand me their 3 treasure token draws after the run so I can equip them the next year. I guess I still see TD as a passion and not as method of income.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Heck - if that is the approach, why not forget the final room entirely, and include the random 3 pulls in the initial 10 packs. That way if someone gets something awesome, they can use it in that first Dungeon.

People like to draw their loot, and it feels like a reward at the end. At the beginning would make it meh.

Personally, I think we admitted defeat when we decided the only way to grow the game was to add more TEs. After that, it was just a question of how do we mitigate the consequences.

Also, CoGF made it worse. That was the first token to reward you (materially) for sharing your tokens. CoA just dialed it up to eleven.

But, you know, spilled milk under the dam.

People can still draw which bag they want out of a magic box, and then the attendant can clip the tie so they can see what they got right away. I would say that 'People like... a reward at the end' is certainly true. But that 'People like to draw their loot...' is a more questionable assertion.

Some people do have to leave or can't complete the dungeon for some reason, so they miss out on all the completion items let alone the treasure draws.