TOPIC: Should Ghosting be allowed at GENCON?

Raven wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: So, maybe what is needed is an Epic dungeon level?

I think all that's needed as scaling up Nightmare.

The question is do you need a difficulty level that is challenging to people who have great rare and UR builds. I don't think you do. I think almost everyone who has a great rare and UR build also splashes it with relics, eldritch healing, etc..

So:

Normal = normal
Hardcore = a good challenge for strong red builds, maybe a UR or too
Nightmare = a good challenge for relic/eldritch level builds

The issue I see it is that right now Nightmare is a good challenge for UR level builds, and I don't think there is a big constituency of players at that gearing level. It's too hard for rare builds not matter how great, and not a challenge at relic+ with eldrich healing levels.

I disagree with the bits which I bolded (emphasis mine, yo).

I think the forumites we see here are "in for a penny, in for a pound" kinda people. If they're buying URs, they're also likely to try making relics & getting those amazing healing synergies going.

But in Coaching, I've seen many, many groups which have solid UR builds. Like, 2-4 URs per player. Definitely all UR weapons, some UR armour, and a few specials like the Lenses of Divine Sight, MEC, Widseth's, etc.

That's the sort of group which Nightmare is aimed at - players who have been around for a few years, invested in a few PYPs, and want to challenge themselves, and/or get the Nightmare-level XP&loot.

I'd be very leery of adjusting Nightmare to fit Relic level builds. It would create a huge gap between the UR-investment level, and the level on monetary commitment needed for Nightmare... and a lot of players who invest at the UR level would say "screw it, I can't keep up" and stop trying (read: stop giving TD money for PYP orders)

Shows what I know

I take it all back.

Cavor wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Cavor wrote: Also, the people that don’t want to game with unknown people, why are you even at Gencon?

Because I want to play with my friends. Why are you being so.....antagonistic on the forums?

In what sense is that antagonistic? Excluding people from a gaming event is against the spirit of Gencon, TD is not special.

I'm more in the camp of preferring to do True Dungeon runs with my group of friends that I come with, although we've certainly had good experiences other players - but a couple of pretty bad experiences also.

It's fine for someone to prefer to do runs with their friends/family than people they don't know. That's not excluding anyone from playing True Dungeon, just excluding them from that particular run of 10 spots. It's also fine for people to prefer to do runs with 9 other people they've never met before. Different strokes for different folks.

Raven wrote:

Davoruk wrote: How about this?
Ghosted tickets gain no treasure and instead are given a consumable Dungeon Ghost Token.

Dungeon Ghost (Consumable): Turn in to negate a single instance on trap or push damage.

Or some such. The ideas is to give a minor advantage while removing the treasure element from Ghosting.

Huh. interesting idea.

I am worried, though, that this would inadvertently create a situation where people deliberately farmed for that particular ghost token. Maybe not dozens of ghosting runs (it'd be an expensive ~$50 consumable) but I know people who'd deliberately ghost just to get one (or two, or three)

Maybe, but would it rise above the threshold where it is a problem? It will be hard to create perfect solutions with no room for abuse. A solution that knocks farming down 98% percent is likely still going to fix the problem.

Honestly I am not even saying a token is necessary. Just kinda throwing out a random idea. I know I do better (or worse) if I have a least a tenuous rationalization for my questionable financial decisions. hehe

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Raven wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: So, maybe what is needed is an Epic dungeon level?

I think all that's needed as scaling up Nightmare.

The question is do you need a difficulty level that is challenging to people who have great rare and UR builds. I don't think you do. I think almost everyone who has a great rare and UR build also splashes it with relics, eldritch healing, etc..

So:

Normal = normal
Hardcore = a good challenge for strong red builds, maybe a UR or too
Nightmare = a good challenge for relic/eldritch level builds

The issue I see it is that right now Nightmare is a good challenge for UR level builds, and I don't think there is a big constituency of players at that gearing level. It's too hard for rare builds not matter how great, and not a challenge at relic+ with eldrich healing levels.

I disagree with the bits which I bolded (emphasis mine, yo).

I think the forumites we see here are "in for a penny, in for a pound" kinda people. If they're buying URs, they're also likely to try making relics & getting those amazing healing synergies going.

But in Coaching, I've seen many, many groups which have solid UR builds. Like, 2-4 URs per player. Definitely all UR weapons, some UR armour, and a few specials like the Lenses of Divine Sight, MEC, Widseth's, etc.

That's the sort of group which Nightmare is aimed at - players who have been around for a few years, invested in a few PYPs, and want to challenge themselves, and/or get the Nightmare-level XP&loot.

I'd be very leery of adjusting Nightmare to fit Relic level builds. It would create a huge gap between the UR-investment level, and the level on monetary commitment needed for Nightmare... and a lot of players who invest at the UR level would say "screw it, I can't keep up" and stop trying (read: stop giving TD money for PYP orders)

Shows what I know

I take it all back.

Thanks, Raven! My party is exactly what you describe as the nightmare run you more typically see.

Amongst our part we have I believe 5 Relic+ items, along with Lenses of Divine Sight, MEC, and Widseth's. Most of the players have a handful of UR's and the rest rares.

Having played in True Horde at TDC I now know what Epic difficulty is and the difference between Nightmare and Epic equipment is huge!

Cavor wrote:
Also, the people that don’t want to game with unknown people, why are you even at Gencon?

I think you are making at least one assumption.

Many of the friends I game with at Gencon are freinds that are now scattered across the globe. Old college friends, people who have moved away, etc. Gencon is almost as much a Gaming reunion for me as it is anything else. So yes I very much look forward to the games I play with these friends.

Even if we are talking about my local group. It is nice for someone else to run a game so we can all be playing. No one has to take there turn as the GM. Not the we mind, but it can be fun to let someone else do all the prep.

I do enjoy games with random strangers. I typically have a least one or two planned each Gencon. But there can be many way to enjoy Gencon.

Mike Steele wrote:

Cavor wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Cavor wrote: Also, the people that don’t want to game with unknown people, why are you even at Gencon?

Because I want to play with my friends. Why are you being so.....antagonistic on the forums?

In what sense is that antagonistic? Excluding people from a gaming event is against the spirit of Gencon, TD is not special.

I'm more in the camp of preferring to do True Dungeon runs with my group of friends that I come with, although we've certainly had good experiences other players - but a couple of pretty bad experiences also.

It's fine for someone to prefer to do runs with their friends/family than people they don't know. That's not excluding anyone from playing True Dungeon, just excluding them from that particular run of 10 spots. It's also fine for people to prefer to do runs with 9 other people they've never met before. Different strokes for different folks.

I also enjoy running with friends, that's not the point I'm trying to get at. The people who end up on the wait list fall into 2 categories, people looking for an extra run, and people that did not know they had to pre-register, and have
never played / been to Gencon before (new players). The issue we have is TD tickets are scarce and reserving a player slot and intentionally keeping it blank is bad (in my opinion)

Let me be clear, I am adamantly against ghosting for treasure, and think it should be banned. Allowing ghosting to keep a coherent group is the lesser evil (Though I think it is bad, other people don't, and that is ok. )

Joshua Long wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Raven wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: So, maybe what is needed is an Epic dungeon level?

I think all that's needed as scaling up Nightmare.

The question is do you need a difficulty level that is challenging to people who have great rare and UR builds. I don't think you do. I think almost everyone who has a great rare and UR build also splashes it with relics, eldritch healing, etc..

So:

Normal = normal
Hardcore = a good challenge for strong red builds, maybe a UR or too
Nightmare = a good challenge for relic/eldritch level builds

The issue I see it is that right now Nightmare is a good challenge for UR level builds, and I don't think there is a big constituency of players at that gearing level. It's too hard for rare builds not matter how great, and not a challenge at relic+ with eldrich healing levels.

I disagree with the bits which I bolded (emphasis mine, yo).

I think the forumites we see here are "in for a penny, in for a pound" kinda people. If they're buying URs, they're also likely to try making relics & getting those amazing healing synergies going.

But in Coaching, I've seen many, many groups which have solid UR builds. Like, 2-4 URs per player. Definitely all UR weapons, some UR armour, and a few specials like the Lenses of Divine Sight, MEC, Widseth's, etc.

That's the sort of group which Nightmare is aimed at - players who have been around for a few years, invested in a few PYPs, and want to challenge themselves, and/or get the Nightmare-level XP&loot.

I'd be very leery of adjusting Nightmare to fit Relic level builds. It would create a huge gap between the UR-investment level, and the level on monetary commitment needed for Nightmare... and a lot of players who invest at the UR level would say "screw it, I can't keep up" and stop trying (read: stop giving TD money for PYP orders)

Shows what I know

I take it all back.

Thanks, Raven! My party is exactly what you describe as the nightmare run you more typically see.

Amongst our part we have I believe 5 Relic+ items, along with Lenses of Divine Sight, MEC, and Widseth's. Most of the players have a handful of UR's and the rest rares.

Having played in True Horde at TDC I now know what Epic difficulty is and the difference between Nightmare and Epic equipment is huge!

Cut to the chase about difficulty:

On the average normal run, a slide of a 10 is a miss.
On the average nightmare run, a slide of a 10 is a hit.

Cavor wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Cavor wrote: Ghosting for treasure should be banned. The solution is simple, sell treasure tokens.

Anything that reduces the number of people experiencing TD every year should be banned. I, for one, don’t volunteer to watch ghosts float through the dungeon and collect loot.

Also, the people that don’t want to game with unknown people, why are you even at Gencon?

It's unclear that ghosting reduces the number of people experiencing TD.

Then filling groups from the wait list should not be a problem?

It isn't that hard to fill groups, the problem is that people want a certain difficult or pre made class selection , and the new players disrupt that.

Cavor wrote:

Joshua Long wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Raven wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: So, maybe what is needed is an Epic dungeon level?

I think all that's needed as scaling up Nightmare.

The question is do you need a difficulty level that is challenging to people who have great rare and UR builds. I don't think you do. I think almost everyone who has a great rare and UR build also splashes it with relics, eldritch healing, etc..

So:

Normal = normal
Hardcore = a good challenge for strong red builds, maybe a UR or too
Nightmare = a good challenge for relic/eldritch level builds

The issue I see it is that right now Nightmare is a good challenge for UR level builds, and I don't think there is a big constituency of players at that gearing level. It's too hard for rare builds not matter how great, and not a challenge at relic+ with eldrich healing levels.

I disagree with the bits which I bolded (emphasis mine, yo).

I think the forumites we see here are "in for a penny, in for a pound" kinda people. If they're buying URs, they're also likely to try making relics & getting those amazing healing synergies going.

But in Coaching, I've seen many, many groups which have solid UR builds. Like, 2-4 URs per player. Definitely all UR weapons, some UR armour, and a few specials like the Lenses of Divine Sight, MEC, Widseth's, etc.

That's the sort of group which Nightmare is aimed at - players who have been around for a few years, invested in a few PYPs, and want to challenge themselves, and/or get the Nightmare-level XP&loot.

I'd be very leery of adjusting Nightmare to fit Relic level builds. It would create a huge gap between the UR-investment level, and the level on monetary commitment needed for Nightmare... and a lot of players who invest at the UR level would say "screw it, I can't keep up" and stop trying (read: stop giving TD money for PYP orders)

Shows what I know

I take it all back.

Thanks, Raven! My party is exactly what you describe as the nightmare run you more typically see.

Amongst our part we have I believe 5 Relic+ items, along with Lenses of Divine Sight, MEC, and Widseth's. Most of the players have a handful of UR's and the rest rares.

Having played in True Horde at TDC I now know what Epic difficulty is and the difference between Nightmare and Epic equipment is huge!

Cut to the chase about difficulty:

On the average normal run, a slide of a 10 is a miss.
On the average nightmare run, a slide of a 10 is a hit.

No, that is incorrect. For nightmare run, a slide of 10 is a hit, for those equipped for epic. There are many times when a 10 does not hit for my party. The Bard has to be singing and the cleric has to had cast prayer for that to be the case sometimes.

Cavor wrote: I also enjoy running with friends, that's not the point I'm trying to get at. The people who end up on the wait list fall into 2 categories, people looking for an extra run, and people that did not know they had to pre-register, and have
never played / been to Gencon before (new players). The issue we have is TD tickets are scarce and reserving a player slot and intentionally keeping it blank is bad (in my opinion)

Let me be clear, I am adamantly against ghosting for treasure, and think it should be banned. Allowing ghosting to keep a coherent group is the lesser evil (Though I think it is bad, other people don't, and that is ok. )

Fair but now you understand that there are many reasons that some folks want to ensure they get to play they want to play (whether it be difficulty, play style, theme or whatever). I know it sucks that someone doesn't get to play TD. It also sucks not to get to play the way you have planned to play. I don't how you balance that exactly but if one side is going to get shorted in my opinion it should not be the side that planned ahead. EVERYONE has the same odds of getting tickets when Gen Con starts selling tickets.


I don't think you are going to find anyone that is going to admit that they ghost for treasure. Maybe you will I doubt it. I think you will find lots here that say they ghost for the variety of reasons mentioned and that the treasure makes it possible. I am not saying that is right or wrong, just putting it out there.

Full disclosure: Yes, I have ghosted a spot or two on runs at Gen Con, but that is after failing to find friends and newbs ahead of time. Yes, I have ghosted 7 at GHC because the tickets were unsold literally minutes before the run was supposed to start. We turned 10 unsed tickets into 4 man (another 1 man party joined ours) run. However if ghosts WITH treasure was not an option those 10 tickets would gone completely unused. And I did do a 2 man run at GHC when part of my group no showed to the convention. If ghosts WITH treasue (not for treasure) were not an option I would have likely returned all my tickets. Lastly I have done a 3 man prestige run at GC. I did not enjoy it and would not do prestige run at GC again, just not my thing. I don't fault others for doing so though. If I wanted to do a prestige run like a solo run I would do it on Thursday of Origins where I am willing to guess there will be ALOT of unsold tickets.

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Cavor wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Cavor wrote: Ghosting for treasure should be banned. The solution is simple, sell treasure tokens.

Anything that reduces the number of people experiencing TD every year should be banned. I, for one, don’t volunteer to watch ghosts float through the dungeon and collect loot.

Also, the people that don’t want to game with unknown people, why are you even at Gencon?

It's unclear that ghosting reduces the number of people experiencing TD.

Then filling groups from the wait list should not be a problem?

It isn't that hard to fill groups, the problem is that people want a certain difficult or pre made class selection , and the new players disrupt that.

My group is a good example of that. Most of the people in my group (some years all of the people) only run a particular Dungeon one time. XP is really important to nearly everyone in my group, everyone wants the Max XP for the convention. If we have an spot open up (maybe someone cancels), and we fill from the wait list, we run the risk of them insisting on running on Normal mode, which would cause everyone to miss out on the Hardcore XP. I'd probably take the hit on paying for the ticket to avoid that, even if there were no treasure coins for the Ghost Player.

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Cavor wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Cavor wrote: Ghosting for treasure should be banned. The solution is simple, sell treasure tokens.

Anything that reduces the number of people experiencing TD every year should be banned. I, for one, don’t volunteer to watch ghosts float through the dungeon and collect loot.

Also, the people that don’t want to game with unknown people, why are you even at Gencon?

It's unclear that ghosting reduces the number of people experiencing TD.

Then filling groups from the wait list should not be a problem?

It isn't that hard to fill groups, the problem is that people want a certain difficult or pre made class selection , and the new players disrupt that.

And worse, the volunteer with the wait list cant/wont put people in touch with each other. Meaning, if i have an extra ticket for tomorrow at 5:23 nightmare with open classes bard wizard or monk, they wont take my info and have someone call me if they want that ticket. So, i am left with no option but to ghost the ticket or luck into finding someone at the last minute...and i have lucked into a last minute add-on when someone was standing by the wait list vol right before my run, but more often i have to ghost to avoid TD selling the slot as a no-show.