TOPIC: E bay seller ???

Harlax wrote:

Ro-gan wrote: The Knock spell no longer works on the Rogue Box. That's because the Rogue's Box is not a physical treasure chest to be opened. It's a metaphysical testing of the Rogue's abilities to pop locks and such in order to get what's "inside."

But now we can pry/bash its metaphysics with a crow bar.

With a Metaphysical CrowBar, yes!

If people were to use a regular Crowbar to pry the chest open, yes - I'd agree it was metaphysiclally impossible.

But the fact that this is a magic Ultra-Rare crowbar "of Persuasion" suggests (to me) that it has some magical - possibly even metaphysical - qualities which lend themselves to the task.

Perhaps what it does is to persuade the Rogue that it would be better to search for treasure *over here* (insert visual of crowbar hooking the Rogue's neck like a Shepherd's Crook and dragging them across the room) or that that the solution to this problem just requires more creative thinking (crowbar bashes Rogue on the head until she smartens up) or that those fingers (whack) should (whack) stop messing (whack) with the (whack) wooden chest and instead (whack) get back to (whack) the riddle on the wall.

I mean, that 10 pts of damage has to come from somewhere, right?

valetutto wrote: Sure but it comes down to perspective.

I think I would prefer the second example.
* Your "doing X" token "does X" - but contrary to your expectations, that ends up not helping.

At least I got to actually do it. The action wasn't impeded. The results were not as the player intended but that's ok.


I've found players are less mad when they try something and it doesn't work versus when they aren't allowed to try it at all.

Also, You can attempt to mitigate those expectations so when the result is contrary, their not as upset.

Why not just meet in the middle. OK your doing X token did X, now here's a small bonus. Those boots of water walking let you cross the room and discover a rogue style clue or small cache of healing potions in some floating debris that could not otherwise be reached (unless you pulled it over with your rope/grappling hook).

IMO people don't need to be allowed to use gear to bypass rooms, but they do need to be allowed to use gear in a way that shows the game designers remembered it existed.

I'm also a fan of the letting one person auto solve the room if they want to, then asking the group if they want to spend the next 10 minutes working on the puzzle for fun approach. It's really no different than having someone who already knows the solution along (or as mentioned doing nothing and healing through the push)

Rob F wrote: No disrespect to Valetutto and others in the camp of only allowing certain Tokens to be used but I'm siding with Myron on this one. Consistency is nice to strive for but at the end of the day TD should be all about the fun. And coming up with creative ideas for solving a puzzle or overcoming an obstacle should always be allowed. Throw the Dwarves I say!!! Or use that Fly Scroll, that is, if you can actually find one.....

+1

valetutto wrote: In the event everyone has "the solution" token, just congrats them! "Congrats you all fly across the room and activate the lever and can now move on." Then ask, "For fun, do you guys actually want to try the puzzle?"

This is how it should be, in my opinion.

Jeff321 wrote:

valetutto wrote: In the event everyone has "the solution" token, just congrats them! "Congrats you all fly across the room and activate the lever and can now move on." Then ask, "For fun, do you guys actually want to try the puzzle?"

This is how it should be, in my opinion.

From a materialistic point of view:

Failure to solve a room doesn't affect treasure anymore.

The only thing at stake is XP and a survivor button. People can game the XP. With enough healing, anyone can sleaze into room 7.

In that context, it no longer matters what happens in rooms 1-6. So, maximizing fun is more important than adhering strictly to the script.

In room 7, though, you'd better have your act together. The strongest enemies and arcane magics are in play, so don't expect a few random tokens to save you.

I dunno if you are able to beat a puzzle by using token X and therefore avoiding potential damage doesn't TD move in a direction of pay to advance? Maybe folks are okay with that, and honestly I guess I don't care because it would not affect how I play.

jedibcg wrote: I dunno if you are able to beat a puzzle by using token X and therefore avoiding potential damage doesn't TD move in a direction of pay to advance? Maybe folks are okay with that, and honestly I guess I don't care because it would not affect how I play.

There was a lot of angst last year about a handful of "pay to win" comments.

I think for me the issue is, there are some evergreen abilities that are printed over and over, and so repeat players can be expected to have them:

* Feather fall
* Walk on water
* Immunity to poison/disease

Rooms that have elements that plausibly interact with these abilities should consider what those interactions are, and shoot for a sweet spot between "solves the room immediately" and "doesn't work/works with no beneficial effect" - as what would the point be of having a water walking ability if whenever water is encountered it doesn't work or has no beneficial effect?

Hard to balance that against "pay to win" - I like the idea of easter eggs - e.g. if a player has [common player ability] and deploys it, they get this bonus.

Maybe the bonus could be an extra treasure chip... (joking).

Yeah like I said it really doesn't matter to me because even if you have token X that lets you 'solve' the puzzle without solving it, how is that affecting my play? Well if you were in my group it could, but since I buy full runs it is unlikely you are in my group.

I think pretty much all collectable games become pay to win.

Games that have items that have different rarities where in those rarities are better the more rare they are means those people that can afford to buy the best stuff have an advantage over the ones that don't.

valetutto wrote: I think pretty much all collectable games become pay to win.

Games that have items that have different rarities where in those rarities are better the more rare they are means those people that can afford to buy the best stuff have an advantage over the ones that don't.

The upside is that True Dungeon is all of us versus the dungeon instead of being pitted against each other.

balthasar wrote:

valetutto wrote: I think pretty much all collectable games become pay to win.

Games that have items that have different rarities where in those rarities are better the more rare they are means those people that can afford to buy the best stuff have an advantage over the ones that don't.

The upside is that True Dungeon is all of us versus the dungeon instead of being pitted against each other.

Mostly. One other way to look at it is that as tokens get more powerful, the Dungeons have to be modified to be competitive at those higher power levels, and it makes it more difficult to succeed for those with less powerful tokens. Back in 2007, someone outfitted with tons of Rares wasn't that far off the top of the power curve and someone outfitted with tons of URs was at the top of the power curve, while now they are far down the power curve due to Relics, Legendary, Eldritch, etc. Hopefully that only really impacts the Nightmare difficulty level, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is impact on Hardcore level as well.