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TOPIC: E bay seller ???

E bay seller ??? 4 years 2 months ago #49

I liked the rooms from way back when that were actually designed to let you use Gear tokens. In one room if you had a Mortar and Pestle you could grind up a stone finger to get a powder to bring a character back from being petrified. In another, if you had a rope token, the DM gave you an actual rope to help with the puzzle. I'd like to see that more often. :)

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E bay seller ??? 4 years 2 months ago #50

Mike Steele wrote: I liked the rooms from way back when that were actually designed to let you use Gear tokens. In one room if you had a Mortar and Pestle you could grind up a stone finger to get a powder to bring a character back from being petrified. In another, if you had a rope token, the DM gave you an actual rope to help with the puzzle. I'd like to see that more often. :)


That I'm 100% in favor of.

Looking at the modules, there are some things like this even in recent years (or at least mentions that people with token X can do special thing Y).

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E bay seller ??? 4 years 2 months ago #51

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I liked the rooms from way back when that were actually designed to let you use Gear tokens. In one room if you had a Mortar and Pestle you could grind up a stone finger to get a powder to bring a character back from being petrified. In another, if you had a rope token, the DM gave you an actual rope to help with the puzzle. I'd like to see that more often. :)


That I'm 100% in favor of.

Looking at the modules, there are some things like this even in recent years (or at least mentions that people with token X can do special thing Y).


Those old Dungeons actually had the DMs giving pretty big hints to use those tokens, I thought it was a good way to encourage new players to use their tokens.

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E bay seller ??? 4 years 2 months ago #52

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Re the consistency issue, I wonder if it would be feasible to solve with technology. If we could for example text Jeff or an AC for a token ruling and have the result stored somewhere accessed via tablet or something we could ensure consistent real-time rulings for creative solutions. We could also be much more accurate with things like damage types if the party cards were incorporated into the system. No need to carry a card between rooms if the GM can just access your stats. Not that something like that wouldn't come with its own host of problems.
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E bay seller ??? 4 years 2 months ago #53

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Rob F wrote: No disrespect to Valetutto and others in the camp of only allowing certain Tokens to be used but I'm siding with Myron on this one. Consistency is nice to strive for but at the end of the day TD should be all about the fun. And coming up with creative ideas for solving a puzzle or overcoming an obstacle should always be allowed. Throw the Dwarves I say!!! Or use that Fly Scroll, that is, if you can actually find one.....


I'm sympathetic to this view - but I think the real issue is with mixed parties and inconsistent results

No one wants to read this theoretical review on Reddit: "Played True Dungeon - we got to a puzzle room which involved building a bridge across a river using barrels and ropes - but then this big spender just pushed us aside and solved the room with his $400 water walking token and we didn't get to do anything - stupid and you have to buy tokens if you want to play - if you don't expect your time to be ruined by big spender, which is all TD caters to."

Nor do you want to read this theoretical review: "DM was terrible - my friend went on Thursday and their group avoided fighting the Black Pudding by putting it to sleep with a poisoned turkey leg - I bought tokens to do this but then our Saturday DM said it didn't work and attacked us. They keep making the dungeon harder through the weekend to try to kill you - stay away."

I'll stipulate that these reviews would not be fair.

But I think to offer a good experience to the most people, TD needs to do what it does - which is strive for consistency, not be like a live improve game based on tokens. This is largely because not everyone will have the same tokens, and new players who are in the mix with tokenaholics would naturally assume you have to buy tokens to play the game and enjoy it.


Maybe if a party has all level 3 or higher players or something you could opt into a "creative chaos" mode by the same rules as changing difficulty where more DM flexibility is allowed, at that point you're a repeat customer and know what's up.

If new players (level 1-2) are in your party, no dice.


Wait - I've got it - if all 10 players turn in a UR special you can RP as much as you want and the DM will always say yes ;).



I get what your saying Matt but to comment on your theoretical reviews: In the first example if "big Token spender" busts out his $400 water walking Token then shame on him for ruining the experience for the other newbies. I wouldn't think that most of the big spenders would do this. In reality though there wouldn't be a $400 water walking Token, something like that would be a Rare at best. Along these same lines though, you'd get a similar negative review when said big spender busts out his Legendary Token and kills the monster in one fell swoop because he's using his high powered Token with newbies on a normal mode run. They would complain about not having fun because they never got a chance to slide. This actually happened to me once and it stunk. So in this case TD's consistent rule of allowing players to use any type of weapon Token regardless of the difficulity of the run lead to a bad experience. You have a Token that's "breaking the room" so to speak but from a combat perspective vs. a creative one.

As for the second scenario, yea the inconsistency there kind of kills things and I could see that happening.

So, I'm not sure what the answer is but I will say this, I've got my kids playing for the first time this year and they are super fired up, they can't wait to go on their first adventure. If they go through the run and come up with some creative ways to try and use Tokens or solve a puzzle/problem and the DM's don't give them any reasonable latitude and shut their ideas down for the sake of being consistent they'll wind up costing TD a group of future players. Telling my son that his boots of Lava walking don't actually protect him from Lava, or that casting a fly scroll doesn't allow him to fly across a chasm will get me a confused look and probably a "Well that doesn't make any sense at all dad, then why would they even make those Tokens? This game isn't fun.". Now I know I'm talking about kids here but I've also heard old TD vets say how much more fun it used to be back in the day when TD first started out, when the rules and Tokens were much simpler.

So, I'm not sure where the balance should lie, I just hope that the creative use of Tokens is always allowed to some extent.
"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world." - Albert Einstein

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E bay seller ??? 4 years 2 months ago #54

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Ro-gan wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

valetutto wrote: It just means we need to get a bit better at token design and try not and rush things with last minuet changes. IIRC the lifting pack had some quick last second changes since we went round a few times about it.


It started as slotless, didn't it? I think that was the big last-minute change.

Many tokens have changed after the fact. I thought Drugar's Die went from charm to slotless post-release, HoP went to flat 6, Read Magic, Knock, Fly and rumors became inert... So Fizzy Lifting wouldn't be the first. That precedent was set years ago.


It might have been a change that happened after the design process, but I figure that's OK since Jeff gets the final word in the designs, and he has deadlines to meet. I think the nature of the Fizzy Pack and Druegar's Die were finalized before people were able to order them, and that's what is most important.

I know Rumors are no longer usable, but I'm not sure Knock, Read Magic, and Scroll of Fly are in the same category. On Tokendb.com, the Rumor token descriptions use past tense, but the others don't. I'd guess if you cast Scroll of Fly, you'd be allowed to fly just like the Scroll says. I do think Knock no longer works on all locks - maybe that description should be updated? Personally I think Knock should be allowed to work - it is a consumable, and there aren't all that many out there, so as long as it isn't reprinted the problem would solve itself over time.


The Knock spell no longer works on the Rogue Box. That's because the Rogue's Box is not a physical treasure chest to be opened. It's a metaphysical testing of the Rogue's abilities to pop locks and such in order to get what's "inside."


But now we can pry/bash its metaphysics with a crow bar. ;)
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E bay seller ??? 4 years 2 months ago #55

Mike Steele wrote: I liked the rooms from way back when that were actually designed to let you use Gear tokens. In one room if you had a Mortar and Pestle you could grind up a stone finger to get a powder to bring a character back from being petrified. In another, if you had a rope token, the DM gave you an actual rope to help with the puzzle. I'd like to see that more often. :)

+1 to the good old days!

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E bay seller ??? 4 years 2 months ago #56

Harlax wrote:

Ro-gan wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

valetutto wrote: It just means we need to get a bit better at token design and try not and rush things with last minuet changes. IIRC the lifting pack had some quick last second changes since we went round a few times about it.


It started as slotless, didn't it? I think that was the big last-minute change.

Many tokens have changed after the fact. I thought Drugar's Die went from charm to slotless post-release, HoP went to flat 6, Read Magic, Knock, Fly and rumors became inert... So Fizzy Lifting wouldn't be the first. That precedent was set years ago.


It might have been a change that happened after the design process, but I figure that's OK since Jeff gets the final word in the designs, and he has deadlines to meet. I think the nature of the Fizzy Pack and Druegar's Die were finalized before people were able to order them, and that's what is most important.

I know Rumors are no longer usable, but I'm not sure Knock, Read Magic, and Scroll of Fly are in the same category. On Tokendb.com, the Rumor token descriptions use past tense, but the others don't. I'd guess if you cast Scroll of Fly, you'd be allowed to fly just like the Scroll says. I do think Knock no longer works on all locks - maybe that description should be updated? Personally I think Knock should be allowed to work - it is a consumable, and there aren't all that many out there, so as long as it isn't reprinted the problem would solve itself over time.


The Knock spell no longer works on the Rogue Box. That's because the Rogue's Box is not a physical treasure chest to be opened. It's a metaphysical testing of the Rogue's abilities to pop locks and such in order to get what's "inside."


But now we can pry/bash its metaphysics with a crow bar. ;)


Good point, an unlock spell won't work but a massive crowbar does. :)

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E bay seller ??? 4 years 2 months ago #57

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MasterED wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I liked the rooms from way back when that were actually designed to let you use Gear tokens. In one room if you had a Mortar and Pestle you could grind up a stone finger to get a powder to bring a character back from being petrified. In another, if you had a rope token, the DM gave you an actual rope to help with the puzzle. I'd like to see that more often. :)

+1 to the good old days!

Ed


What self respecting adventurer doesn't carry rope? :P
D&D teaches all the important lessons in life - the low blow, the cheap shot, the back stab, the double cross. - Jerry Marsischky

Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir

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E bay seller ??? 4 years 2 months ago #58

Rob F wrote: No disrespect to Valetutto and others in the camp of only allowing certain Tokens to be used but I'm siding with Myron on this one. Consistency is nice to strive for but at the end of the day TD should be all about the fun. And coming up with creative ideas for solving a puzzle or overcoming an obstacle should always be allowed. Throw the Dwarves I say!!! Or use that Fly Scroll, that is, if you can actually find one.....


None taken. To be clear, I like consistency and fairness. I don't actually try and use my tokens in odd ways unless it seems like the solution IS a token. I actually prefer the tokens to come into play but in a side quest or "helper" type way.

For tokens I hate, I hate the rope the most. In every crazy-no-way-it-would-work idea it evolves rope. I'm certain its the most "go-to" token players are likely to try. "So I use my rope to make a helicopter and we all fly across!"

Now, where I DO get annoyed is if the token very specifically applies and your told, "Oh no sorry this is Super Special Fire and your fire immunity doesn't apply" or some equally lame excuse because they didn't think of the token basics. Don't give me boots of water walking and then fill a room with water and not expect me to try and cross. Its not like I suggested to take 100 - 10' pole tokens and rope them together to make a raft to boat across, you gave me boots with 1 sole purpose and expected me to not get mad when I tried to use them.

We're just setting people up for situations like these and we need to be cognizant of it.

If the room requires the players do something then give them a reason to do it. "Yes you can easily walk over the water but the door appears locked and there is a key at the bottom, looks like you might have to temporarily deactivate those boots to try and get at the key." or "Stepping on the pedestals in a particular order seems to be what it will take to magically unlock the door, if you want to walk over the water to wait by the door feel free"

In the module's design or the rooms review phase, instead of just denying the token that might actually directly apply, just allow it to apply in a manor that only effects that player or doesn't actually solve the problem. SO they feel they "got to use it" but ultimately it didn't help or didn't matter.

I'm very much against a single token that would end the room in a second but that should be easy enough to avoid. "Congrats! you fly to the other side, unfortunately the lever is too heavy for you to move on your own, you'll have to wait until the rest of your party gets over here to help".

In the event everyone has "the solution" token, just congrats them! "Congrats you all fly across the room and activate the lever and can now move on." Then ask, "For fun, do you guys actually want to try the puzzle?"

'oh but Valetutto that means people can just use tokens instead of solving the room' - I got news for you, they already can do that. Sit there for 12 mins do nothing, take push damage, hand healing over to DM in next room.



So in short, its fine to have the default be "tokens don't work" as long as we don't make rooms appear as if they need them.
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E bay seller ??? 4 years 2 months ago #59

valetutto wrote: If the room requires the players do something then give them a reason to do it. "Yes you can easily walk over the water but the door appears locked and there is a key at the bottom, looks like you might have to temporarily deactivate those boots to try and get at the key." or "Stepping on the pedestals in a particular order seems to be what it will take to magically unlock the door, if you want to walk over the water to wait by the door feel free"

...

"Congrats! you fly to the other side, unfortunately the lever is too heavy for you to move on your own, you'll have to wait until the rest of your party gets over here to help".


I think these approaches just relocate the problem a bit - I think people are going to be just as mad about either of these:

* Your "doing X" token doesn't "do X" here.
* Your "doing X" token "does X" - but contrary to your expectations, that ends up not helping.

Both remove the utility of a token that "does X" - they just do it in a different way.

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E bay seller ??? 4 years 2 months ago #60

Sure but it comes down to perspective.

I think I would prefer the second example.
* Your "doing X" token "does X" - but contrary to your expectations, that ends up not helping.

At least I got to actually do it. The action wasn't impeded. The results were not as the player intended but that's ok.


I've found players are less mad when they try something and it doesn't work versus when they aren't allowed to try it at all.

Also, You can attempt to mitigate those expectations so when the result is contrary, their not as upset.
Sweet a combat room, we won't take damage!

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