TOPIC: E bay seller ???

Ro-gan wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Ro-gan wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

valetutto wrote: It just means we need to get a bit better at token design and try not and rush things with last minuet changes. IIRC the lifting pack had some quick last second changes since we went round a few times about it.

It started as slotless, didn't it? I think that was the big last-minute change.

Many tokens have changed after the fact. I thought Drugar's Die went from charm to slotless post-release, HoP went to flat 6, Read Magic, Knock, Fly and rumors became inert... So Fizzy Lifting wouldn't be the first. That precedent was set years ago.

It might have been a change that happened after the design process, but I figure that's OK since Jeff gets the final word in the designs, and he has deadlines to meet. I think the nature of the Fizzy Pack and Druegar's Die were finalized before people were able to order them, and that's what is most important.

I know Rumors are no longer usable, but I'm not sure Knock, Read Magic, and Scroll of Fly are in the same category. On Tokendb.com, the Rumor token descriptions use past tense, but the others don't. I'd guess if you cast Scroll of Fly, you'd be allowed to fly just like the Scroll says. I do think Knock no longer works on all locks - maybe that description should be updated? Personally I think Knock should be allowed to work - it is a consumable, and there aren't all that many out there, so as long as it isn't reprinted the problem would solve itself over time.

The Knock spell no longer works on the Rogue Box. That's because the Rogue's Box is not a physical treasure chest to be opened. It's a metaphysical testing of the Rogue's abilities to pop locks and such in order to get what's "inside."

True, but we've tried using it on an actual lock, and it didn't work then either.

Yeah, it's getting ridiculous that Tokens designed to do a particular thing are no longer "working" in Rooms because it will possibly "break the Room." Players are getting punished anymore the past few years for coming up with great ideas for Tokens.

I remember one year I DM'ed a Room that involved a chasm the Players had to cross by getting a bridge to work. I mentioned the Scroll: Fly or tossing the Dwarf across with a character that had 30+ Strength could work instead of solving the puzzle. I even mentioned the Fly Scroll was a woodie UR so it wouldn't get used much, if at all. I was told that the fly spell would run out just before getting across and the Dwarf would just miss the other side no matter how much Strength the tosser(s) had.

I understand not letting the Dwarf toss work, but I'd have let the Scroll of Fly work. There aren't that many of them around.

Speaking of that - I'd be interested in picking up that Scroll of Fly for my woodie collection since it doesn't work anymore.

Ro-gan wrote: ... and the Dwarf would just miss the other side no matter how much Strength the tosser(s) had.

I don't know why you need to be name calling

So much for finding creative solutions to perplexing problems.... I doubt a party would have had ten of those wooden scroll of fly tokens? And, yeah, maybe throw across the dwarf would work for him... But what about the other nine players? If someone had 30 str, then other skills probably had been neglected to get it... So still would balance out, in other rooms where strength isn't a benefit, that player possibly would have been at a disadvantage... Isn't that "balance"?

Those would have been really "cool" solutions... Maybe the dwarf takes some "fall" or "impact" damage, but still got across... So then solve the bridge puzzle for everyone else? it seems the excuse "semantics" to "solving" the bridge and not "solving" crossing the chasm is a bit petty to me... But I am not the decision maker (and for good reasons!)

It doesn't sound like the room would have been broken to me... Just some cool RPG playing for creative "partial" solution (1 or 2 players out of 10).

I think it would have made that particular puzzle and even dungeon run more enjoyable for everyone! And, the puzzle would still have to have been solved for the rest of the party, anyways... For the rest to cross. Think of the after-game over a few drinks people bragging about how one or two of them "broke" the room, still the rest had to solve it for credit! But they will remember the enjoyment of that creativ solution.

That reminds me of the lava room last year you had to cross... People with those boots to walk across didn't give credit for solving the puzzle so if a couple used them they failed the puzzle? The entire party, I doubt, would have those boots, so they would have to have solved the puzzle to cross... Still something that in my honest opinion makes the game funner... I understand the infamous backpack of jumping wouldn't have solved it... It is for COMBAT, and you land safely where you started! That seemed to me fair...

I guess I prefer the goal to solve the room mechanics, not the actual puzzle, if a fair and creative solution can be created... Especially if the main puzzle gets solved by some of the party for the rest of the party to succeed solving the room...

Still, I love the game, just think working more creative role playing solutions maybe ought to be allowed to "successfully" solve the puzzle, even if it really solves the room, I.e. Crossing the Chasm, and not the puzzle, Fixing or Extending the Bridge. This would make the game even more addictive in my opinion... And token collecting of unique and unusual tokens even more important for people of like minds...

Not every room would have some such creative solution, so it still seems fair to me... Take the flying ship you had to fix a few years ago... How would you fix the air blowing without actually solving the puzzle? (I am butchering this puzzle description, sorry... I read about it a while ago...)

On the other side, if a team (or even just a couple of players in a pick up game) of players runs the dungeon twice, with time to re-outfit their characters to out beat the run and break every possible room, that would not necessarily be fun, to me, at least... How many people have seen a magician perform tricks you already knew the solution to? Or played a scenario in some RPG real where you read the module before you played? Both of these are painful experience in my opinion. To me, that is just not fun, a waste of money, and ruins it for everyone else...

At least in Tru Dungeon you only get credit for each unique run, and not every run...

Sorry, I will get off of my pedastile and stop rambling... I am not a pacifist, even though a non-lethal solution for an entire run may be fun to try, I still like the hack and slash... Sliding of the pucks, to make it still a fun challenge.

Ok so creative solutions and room breaking tokens were disallowed for basically 2 primary reasons.
1. because of treasure stamps. - problem now solved.
2. fairness. - still has issues.

Its impossible to write a dungeon that covers the use of every single token or token+idea combo out there.
Its impossible to get all the DMs to behave exactly the same.
Fairness becomes the issue when you let DMs interpret things like how a token interacts with a clever or unexpected use in a room to circumvent the encounter as written.

TD is about consistency. To that end, they do their best to write into the script all the tokens they can think about and then they just "Deny" the others cart-blanche so its fair. Otherwise you end up with some "Nice" DMs and some "Mean" DMs.

So, the way we currently do it is our best way due to the mission statement objectives. Now, if we didn't care about consistency in all cases or fairness, we could implement a policy of letting the DM just try their best to adjudicate strange situations as they come up and typically allow any token to get used.

I personally think the best way to handle this is to create "Red Teams". These would be groups of people that consist of the AC, the room DMs of that room, Jeff Martin and a few devious token smart people. You'd need 1 red team per room per year. Their job would be to break the room by any means possible and they would start when Jeff got a rough idea of what he wanted for that room. This way the room could be fixed and adapted as people thought of devious ways to break it. It would have to be done ahead of time so there is still time to correct for it, put it in the write up and teach the DMs.
Now, I know the DMs are going to say they do this already to some degree, and that's great but I think they are missing a piece of the puzzle somewhere, either its needing more devious token savvy or more time with the room. I know its possible.

I really like your explanation. I can see your point on fairness.

I really like the idea of the Red Teams... Reminds me of the FBI specialist teams. But how reasonable could this be to do? Does Jeff really have the time?

I know I go on and on about creative solutions... But how would the DM's be consistent across different runs? I agree that is expecting probably too much of volunteers, no matter the experience, and can cause many pauses in game play for adjudication, ruining the continuity of suspending our sense of reality for that two hour time slice.

In a perfect world, it could be done, but in a perfect world, physics would not have friction, we would have perpetual motion, energy costs would be zero, there would be no wars, etc... Not realistic.

The Red Team approach sounds cool, but we always have the law of "unintended consequences"... Maybe possible solutions would get out even before the con's... Not intentially, surely, but things happen, and that would also ruin the fun.

Reason number one, solved!

Reason number two, probably not feasible to solve fairly...

This doesn't change how much I still love (er, maybe enjoy would be a better word) True Dungeon, maybe a bit too much for my wife's comfort... She hates anything to do with fantasy and anything not a spiritual and uplifting activity -- a whole other story, a saga even.

I love the idea of finding creative solutions to perplexing problems, even apply this concept to my professional life at work... But realize that it isn't necessarily feasible to do in a once or twice per year (three times this year?) event such as this...

I just have a tendency to be very opinionated and I like to express my opinions and ideas and read others comments, but I try (but according to my coworkers, I fail miserably a bunch) to be respectful of others opinions as well as the desired and stated direction of authority figures...

Thanks for your time in responding to my diatribes! Seriously, no sarcasm intended!

Just to play Devil's advocate, one reason True Dungeon might not want to allow you to use a token to short-circuit a Puzzle Room is because they may have spent a lot of time on developing it, and they may feel the group will get enjoyment out of trying to solve it the "right" way, which also often encourages teamwork from the entire group to solve. And it might keep the group occupied enjoyably for much of the 12 minutes of the room, instead of using a token to bypass it in a minute or two and then sitting and waiting for 10 minutes for the time to end.

Re: breaking rooms - every year, the DMs spend weeks ahead of the con reviewing the rooms and asking questions to learn how to run it. Ideally, they'd be using that time trying to break it, too, and thinking of off-the-wall combos and strategies. Sometimes they do. They do their best, but seldom think of everything. It's a half-dozen volunteers against hundreds of clever players.

I don't think you wee being a devils advocate... You make great points. Technically, solving the puzzle is creative role playing...

I really appreciate everyone's comments.

This is the only blog or forum I have ever participated in with more than an intro message due to the vitriol and trolling I see everywhere else. I read blogs and forums to find solutions to problems at work, but won't post, unfortunately, even to answer other people's questions. I hate being told that my answer or question is stupid or inappropriate by people out to troll.

Everyone here seems to be nice and professional, here for learning, teaching, and having a good time.

Thanks

Just a quick rewind to the Scroll: Fly and Dwarf Tossing...

It's not just the Dwarf or the flyer making it across and the rest of the Party still needing to solve the puzzle. The Dwarf or the flyer would be attached to rope and tie off their end on the other side. The Party then could climb across using the rope.

Never thought about the rope! Also maybe ixnay throwing the dwarf, through the rope with a grappling hook? Range attack roll maybe? Then a reflex save for everyone to cross one at a time (since we don't have climb checks)? What if they then have strong wind blowing so you can't throw the dwarf or grappling hook? Can we then try tying the rope to an arrow of true flight?

Maybe I am once again overthinking this... Yes, I am definitely over thinking it.

No disrespect to Valetutto and others in the camp of only allowing certain Tokens to be used but I'm siding with Myron on this one. Consistency is nice to strive for but at the end of the day TD should be all about the fun. And coming up with creative ideas for solving a puzzle or overcoming an obstacle should always be allowed. Throw the Dwarves I say!!! Or use that Fly Scroll, that is, if you can actually find one.....

Rob F wrote: No disrespect to Valetutto and others in the camp of only allowing certain Tokens to be used but I'm siding with Myron on this one. Consistency is nice to strive for but at the end of the day TD should be all about the fun. And coming up with creative ideas for solving a puzzle or overcoming an obstacle should always be allowed. Throw the Dwarves I say!!! Or use that Fly Scroll, that is, if you can actually find one.....

I'm sympathetic to this view - but I think the real issue is with mixed parties and inconsistent results

No one wants to read this theoretical review on Reddit: "Played True Dungeon - we got to a puzzle room which involved building a bridge across a river using barrels and ropes - but then this big spender just pushed us aside and solved the room with his $400 water walking token and we didn't get to do anything - stupid and you have to buy tokens if you want to play - if you don't expect your time to be ruined by big spender, which is all TD caters to."

Nor do you want to read this theoretical review: "DM was terrible - my friend went on Thursday and their group avoided fighting the Black Pudding by putting it to sleep with a poisoned turkey leg - I bought tokens to do this but then our Saturday DM said it didn't work and attacked us. They keep making the dungeon harder through the weekend to try to kill you - stay away."

I'll stipulate that these reviews would not be fair.

But I think to offer a good experience to the most people, TD needs to do what it does - which is strive for consistency, not be like a live improve game based on tokens. This is largely because not everyone will have the same tokens, and new players who are in the mix with tokenaholics would naturally assume you have to buy tokens to play the game and enjoy it.


Maybe if a party has all level 3 or higher players or something you could opt into a "creative chaos" mode by the same rules as changing difficulty where more DM flexibility is allowed, at that point you're a repeat customer and know what's up.

If new players (level 1-2) are in your party, no dice.


Wait - I've got it - if all 10 players turn in a UR special you can RP as much as you want and the DM will always say yes .