TOPIC: +3 deathcleaver thoughts

Joshua Baessler wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Legion wrote:
Don't forget it's probably also Soulbound.

Why would you say it is Soulbound? Many others have used it. Thor's hammer could be argued to be soulbounded....not making that argument just saying it is more a likely candidate to be souldbound.

I never get to talk about comics.

Thor's hammer isn't soulbound either, it just has the restriction of only being wielded by he (or she, I'm looking at you, Jane Foster) who it (or Odin, depending on which continuity we're talking about here) deems worthy.

Wielders: Beta Ray Bill, Storm, Captain America, Thor's paternal line (father, gf, ggf), Loki (he's chaotic, not evil), Jane Foster, Professor X, Rogue, Black Widow, Superman (same crossover as above), and Vision (MCU, but my theory is the only reason he could at the time was that he was a blank slate, I don't think he'll ever be able to again now that he's lived a bit).

I suspect Vision could still lift it in MCU, he's still being portrayed as pretty "pure" and worthy. Although he did accidentally take down a teammate - maybe that knocks him a rung or two down the worthy chart. Although, I'd guess Thor has done likewise at least a time or two over the eons.

[RANT ON]
So this thread has some interesting points. One of the questions was is there value in Relics. If you define value only in the terms of money the clear answer is no. Hang in there while I go through this.

TD is designed to be an experience and you can play the game on non-lethal difficulty. Hence, getting a ticket and playing with your 10 tokens on non-lethal is not only do able but designed to be enjoyable.

This means any tokens beyond the 10 you get are not necessary and returning to question the answer is no. You don't need Relics and monetary it is not necessary - you only need your 10 base tokens.

Now, if we want (notice not need) to play on a harder difficulty we are going to see a similar effect. Most people would agree Nightmare dificulty can be accomplished by 10 good players with only Rare/Uncommon/Common tokens. If you agree with that statement then no token beyond Rare is a good monetary value. So why are there UR/Relic/Legendary and transumutated tokens?

Because there is more to a token then just need and just using the lowest monentary value token - a token also has economic utility. The satisication one gets from the good. This will include the intrisinic in game value, monetary value, personal pride, collection reward, and any other personal value achieved. Since the utility is very personal and subjective in nature it is very difficult to qualify.

So what does this mean. One has to decide for themself which of two choices has more utility to them. One might find diversity of a token use (class range) has more utility where another might only play 1 class so that is trivial. One might find spending less money to get +1 to hit a better value than swinging a Relic weapon (+1 to hit as well). One might strive to collect a legendary weapon for their favorite class as the highest reward and another may be happy playing with a common build.

Decide how much money is a factor in your enjoyment and then only spend your money in that way.
[RANT OFF]

Now time to sell my collection!

Ed

MasterED wrote: [RANT ON]
So this thread has some interesting points. One of the questions was is there value in Relics. If you define value only in the terms of money the clear answer is no. Hang in there while I go through this.

TD is designed to be an experience and you can play the game on non-lethal difficulty. Hence, getting a ticket and playing with your 10 tokens on non-lethal is not only do able but designed to be enjoyable.

This means any tokens beyond the 10 you get are not necessary and returning to question the answer is no. You don't need Relics and monetary it is not necessary - you only need your 10 base tokens.

Now, if we want (notice not need) to play on a harder difficulty we are going to see a similar effect. Most people would agree Nightmare dificulty can be accomplished by 10 good players with only Rare/Uncommon/Common tokens. If you agree with that statement then no token beyond Rare is a good monetary value. So why are there UR/Relic/Legendary and transumutated tokens?

Because there is more to a token then just need and just using the lowest monentary value token - a token also has economic utility. The satisication one gets from the good. This will include the intrisinic in game value, monetary value, personal pride, collection reward, and any other personal value achieved. Since the utility is very personal and subjective in nature it is very difficult to qualify.

So what does this mean. One has to decide for themself which of two choices has more utility to them. One might find diversity of a token use (class range) has more utility where another might only play 1 class so that is trivial. One might find spending less money to get +1 to hit a better value than swinging a Relic weapon (+1 to hit as well). One might strive to collect a legendary weapon for their favorite class as the highest reward and another may be happy playing with a common build.

Decide how much money is a factor in your enjoyment and then only spend your money in that way.
[RANT OFF]

Now time to sell my collection!

Ed

Hi Ed,

You make a lot of good points, and I do agree that the starting 10 packs on non-lethal mode should be doable for most. But, non-lethal mode isn't what many people want to play, and if you're joining a pre-existing group, it's doubtful all 10 people would agree to play non-lethal.

I would say that it is not 100% sure groups will survive on Normal mode just with the starting 10 packs, and it's certainly not 100% sure groups will survive on Nightmare with just Rares/Uncommons/Commons. Especially if some or all of the group aren't hardcore players like most on the forums. So, I would say that getting the more powerful tokens does increase the odds of victory, which is very appealing to many / most players. And it also makes them more comfortable playing the higher difficulty levels, which is also appealing to many. And, some groups (mine is also often one of them) get a lot of enjoyment out of sometimes just annihilating monsters - we like to call that a Cuisinart run. More powerful tokens help enable all those things.

I know the intelligence / discipline / sliding skill / knowledge of character abilities goes a long ways towards being successful in the Dungeons. But, having an extra +10 or +15 to hit and an extra +15 or + 20 damage per person per round is undeniably beneficial as well.

Mike Steele wrote: Hi Ed,

You make a lot of good points, and I do agree that the starting 10 packs on non-lethal mode should be doable for most. But, non-lethal mode isn't what many people want to play, and if you're joining a pre-existing group, it's doubtful all 10 people would agree to play non-lethal.

I would say that it is not 100% sure groups will survive on Normal mode just with the starting 10 packs, and it's certainly not 100% sure groups will survive on Nightmare with just Rares/Uncommons/Commons. Especially if some or all of the group aren't hardcore players like most on the forums. So, I would say that getting the more powerful tokens does increase the odds of victory, which is very appealing to many / most players. And it also makes them more comfortable playing the higher difficulty levels, which is also appealing to many. And, some groups (mine is also often one of them) get a lot of enjoyment out of sometimes just annihilating monsters - we like to call that a Cuisinart run. More powerful tokens help enable all those things.

I know the intelligence / discipline / sliding skill / knowledge of character abilities goes a long ways towards being successful in the Dungeons. But, having an extra +10 or +15 to hit and an extra +15 or + 20 damage per person per round is undeniably beneficial as well.

I agree with your points Mike but playing a higher difficulty level is a want not a need. So this is all about utility not strictly monetary value.

Also, as I seem to recall the difficulty has to be unanimous and if just 1 person only wants to play non-lethal then the group plays non-lethal. Someone check me on that. Regardless the treasure rewarded (not counting completion tokens) is the same - 3 (without treasure enhancers).

Ed

Mike Steele wrote:

Joshua Baessler wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Legion wrote:
Don't forget it's probably also Soulbound.

Why would you say it is Soulbound? Many others have used it. Thor's hammer could be argued to be soulbounded....not making that argument just saying it is more a likely candidate to be souldbound.

I never get to talk about comics.

Thor's hammer isn't soulbound either, it just has the restriction of only being wielded by he (or she, I'm looking at you, Jane Foster) who it (or Odin, depending on which continuity we're talking about here) deems worthy.

Wielders: Beta Ray Bill, Storm, Captain America, Thor's paternal line (father, gf, ggf), Loki (he's chaotic, not evil), Jane Foster, Professor X, Rogue, Black Widow, Superman (same crossover as above), and Vision (MCU, but my theory is the only reason he could at the time was that he was a blank slate, I don't think he'll ever be able to again now that he's lived a bit).

I suspect Vision could still lift it in MCU, he's still being portrayed as pretty "pure" and worthy. Although he did accidentally take down a teammate - maybe that knocks him a rung or two down the worthy chart. Although, I'd guess Thor has done likewise at least a time or two over the eons.

Isn't it more that the Vision is an artificial being, an android? If the Mjolnir is in an elevator and it goes up, is the elevator worthy?

MasterED wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Hi Ed,

You make a lot of good points, and I do agree that the starting 10 packs on non-lethal mode should be doable for most. But, non-lethal mode isn't what many people want to play, and if you're joining a pre-existing group, it's doubtful all 10 people would agree to play non-lethal.

I would say that it is not 100% sure groups will survive on Normal mode just with the starting 10 packs, and it's certainly not 100% sure groups will survive on Nightmare with just Rares/Uncommons/Commons. Especially if some or all of the group aren't hardcore players like most on the forums. So, I would say that getting the more powerful tokens does increase the odds of victory, which is very appealing to many / most players. And it also makes them more comfortable playing the higher difficulty levels, which is also appealing to many. And, some groups (mine is also often one of them) get a lot of enjoyment out of sometimes just annihilating monsters - we like to call that a Cuisinart run. More powerful tokens help enable all those things.

I know the intelligence / discipline / sliding skill / knowledge of character abilities goes a long ways towards being successful in the Dungeons. But, having an extra +10 or +15 to hit and an extra +15 or + 20 damage per person per round is undeniably beneficial as well.

I agree with your points Mike but playing a higher difficulty level is a want not a need. So this is all about utility not strictly monetary value.

Also, as I seem to recall the difficulty has to be unanimous and if just 1 person only wants to play non-lethal then the group plays non-lethal. Someone check me on that. Regardless the treasure rewarded (not counting completion tokens) is the same - 3 (without treasure enhancers).

Ed

Ed, if you want to go down that route, then playing True Dungeon at all is a Want, not a Need. Wanting to play True Dungeon and Wanting to play on a higher difficulty level, or have a higher chance of success, seem pretty similar to me. People want to play True Dungeon, and they want to play it the way they want to.

I'm pretty sure that Normal difficulty level is the default. To play a lower difficulty level (Non-Lethal) or higher (Hardcore or Nightmare) requires a unanimous decision.

bpsymington wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Joshua Baessler wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Legion wrote:
Don't forget it's probably also Soulbound.

Why would you say it is Soulbound? Many others have used it. Thor's hammer could be argued to be soulbounded....not making that argument just saying it is more a likely candidate to be souldbound.

I never get to talk about comics.

Thor's hammer isn't soulbound either, it just has the restriction of only being wielded by he (or she, I'm looking at you, Jane Foster) who it (or Odin, depending on which continuity we're talking about here) deems worthy.

Wielders: Beta Ray Bill, Storm, Captain America, Thor's paternal line (father, gf, ggf), Loki (he's chaotic, not evil), Jane Foster, Professor X, Rogue, Black Widow, Superman (same crossover as above), and Vision (MCU, but my theory is the only reason he could at the time was that he was a blank slate, I don't think he'll ever be able to again now that he's lived a bit).

I suspect Vision could still lift it in MCU, he's still being portrayed as pretty "pure" and worthy. Although he did accidentally take down a teammate - maybe that knocks him a rung or two down the worthy chart. Although, I'd guess Thor has done likewise at least a time or two over the eons.

Isn't it more that the Vision is an artificial being, an android? If the Mjolnir is in an elevator and it goes up, is the elevator worthy?

Brad, that's an interesting take on it, that I never considered. My thought all along was that the Vision was worthy enough to lift it, which is why it was such an impressive moment in the film. That's still my take on it. But your explanation works also.

Mike Steele wrote: Ed, if you want to go down that route, then playing True Dungeon at all is a Want, not a Need. Wanting to play True Dungeon and Wanting to play on a higher difficulty level, or have a higher chance of success, seem pretty similar to me. People want to play True Dungeon, and they want to play it the way they want to.

That is a slippery slope and probably best for a separate thread. But considering the default is Normal (see below) many groups would still be successful at Normal if people just used their 10 packs. Which means anything beyond Rare builds is clearly a want beyond monetary value.

Mike Steele wrote: I'm pretty sure that Normal difficulty level is the default. To play a lower difficulty level (Non-Lethal) or higher (Hardcore or Nightmare) requires a unanimous decision.

Thanks for catching. I did check the Coach's guide and it says, " Verify the group’s difficulty setting. Remember, the decision to play on anything other than Normal difficulty must be unanimous. If needed, try to help the party decide. If they’re all new players and have nothing but Commons, Nightmare is not a good choice so advise against it. Don’t allow the party to spend a lot of time debating. Make sure their difficulty setting has been checked on the party card. Actively discourage poorly equipped parties from attempting Nightmare. That said, ultimately it’s their choice. If they’re feeling suicidal, let them run on Nightmare. Special Note: Nightmare difficulty has been significantly increased this year. Make sure all groups who want to run on Nightmare know this!"

Mike Steele wrote:

bpsymington wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Joshua Baessler wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Legion wrote:
Don't forget it's probably also Soulbound.

Why would you say it is Soulbound? Many others have used it. Thor's hammer could be argued to be soulbounded....not making that argument just saying it is more a likely candidate to be souldbound.

I never get to talk about comics.

Thor's hammer isn't soulbound either, it just has the restriction of only being wielded by he (or she, I'm looking at you, Jane Foster) who it (or Odin, depending on which continuity we're talking about here) deems worthy.

Wielders: Beta Ray Bill, Storm, Captain America, Thor's paternal line (father, gf, ggf), Loki (he's chaotic, not evil), Jane Foster, Professor X, Rogue, Black Widow, Superman (same crossover as above), and Vision (MCU, but my theory is the only reason he could at the time was that he was a blank slate, I don't think he'll ever be able to again now that he's lived a bit).

I suspect Vision could still lift it in MCU, he's still being portrayed as pretty "pure" and worthy. Although he did accidentally take down a teammate - maybe that knocks him a rung or two down the worthy chart. Although, I'd guess Thor has done likewise at least a time or two over the eons.

Isn't it more that the Vision is an artificial being, an android? If the Mjolnir is in an elevator and it goes up, is the elevator worthy?

Brad, that's an interesting take on it, that I never considered. My thought all along was that the Vision was worthy enough to lift it, which is why it was such an impressive moment in the film. That's still my take on it. But your explanation works also.

Me not Brad! Me Brian!

bpsymington wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

bpsymington wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Joshua Baessler wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Legion wrote:
Don't forget it's probably also Soulbound.

Why would you say it is Soulbound? Many others have used it. Thor's hammer could be argued to be soulbounded....not making that argument just saying it is more a likely candidate to be souldbound.

I never get to talk about comics.

Thor's hammer isn't soulbound either, it just has the restriction of only being wielded by he (or she, I'm looking at you, Jane Foster) who it (or Odin, depending on which continuity we're talking about here) deems worthy.

Wielders: Beta Ray Bill, Storm, Captain America, Thor's paternal line (father, gf, ggf), Loki (he's chaotic, not evil), Jane Foster, Professor X, Rogue, Black Widow, Superman (same crossover as above), and Vision (MCU, but my theory is the only reason he could at the time was that he was a blank slate, I don't think he'll ever be able to again now that he's lived a bit).

I suspect Vision could still lift it in MCU, he's still being portrayed as pretty "pure" and worthy. Although he did accidentally take down a teammate - maybe that knocks him a rung or two down the worthy chart. Although, I'd guess Thor has done likewise at least a time or two over the eons.

Isn't it more that the Vision is an artificial being, an android? If the Mjolnir is in an elevator and it goes up, is the elevator worthy?

Brad, that's an interesting take on it, that I never considered. My thought all along was that the Vision was worthy enough to lift it, which is why it was such an impressive moment in the film. That's still my take on it. But your explanation works also.

Me not Brad! Me Brian!

Sorry Brian - I guess that knocks me out of the "worthy" category.

Good catch Raven.

My secondary class is a Rogue
-THOT

Mike Steele wrote:

bpsymington wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

bpsymington wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Joshua Baessler wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Legion wrote:
Don't forget it's probably also Soulbound.

Why would you say it is Soulbound? Many others have used it. Thor's hammer could be argued to be soulbounded....not making that argument just saying it is more a likely candidate to be souldbound.

I never get to talk about comics.

Thor's hammer isn't soulbound either, it just has the restriction of only being wielded by he (or she, I'm looking at you, Jane Foster) who it (or Odin, depending on which continuity we're talking about here) deems worthy.

Wielders: Beta Ray Bill, Storm, Captain America, Thor's paternal line (father, gf, ggf), Loki (he's chaotic, not evil), Jane Foster, Professor X, Rogue, Black Widow, Superman (same crossover as above), and Vision (MCU, but my theory is the only reason he could at the time was that he was a blank slate, I don't think he'll ever be able to again now that he's lived a bit).

I suspect Vision could still lift it in MCU, he's still being portrayed as pretty "pure" and worthy. Although he did accidentally take down a teammate - maybe that knocks him a rung or two down the worthy chart. Although, I'd guess Thor has done likewise at least a time or two over the eons.

Isn't it more that the Vision is an artificial being, an android? If the Mjolnir is in an elevator and it goes up, is the elevator worthy?

Brad, that's an interesting take on it, that I never considered. My thought all along was that the Vision was worthy enough to lift it, which is why it was such an impressive moment in the film. That's still my take on it. But your explanation works also.

Me not Brad! Me Brian!

Sorry Brian - I guess that knocks me out of the "worthy" category.

Comics!! Now this I love and know!!

First off, the Vision from the movies is not the comic book version. Being a machine-being has nothing to do with it. In the movie Vision is in possession of one of the Infinity Gems. The Thought Gem, IIRC. I'm guessing that is why he was able to hold Mjolnir.

In the comics the only robotic being to wield Mjolnir is the Air Walker Construct. Off the top of my head without googling, I don't know if the Vision ever held the Hammer successfully.

Keep in mind about the Vision in the comics. His body is robotic but his consciousness/"soul" is a template of Simon Williams (Wonder Man). Technically he is a cyborg if anything. Although, I believe in the Marvel 616 he is classified as an android with a soul.

Since the Air Walker Construct has a soul, too, it was pure and able to use Mjolnir. Also, he was a former Herald of Galactus which also probably aided him to lift it.

Not all robotic beings in the MU 616 will be able to accomplish this. Thus the elevator theory is out the door.

Oh! And being worthy has nothing to do with not being a killer, etc. Thor is a Viking warrior. He has killed in the past in battle. He is a Viking after all. The killing aspect could be interpreted if you go that route that it was a worthy slaying and not done in malice.