TOPIC: Supreme Orb of Dragonkind

Brad Mortensen wrote: .

Mike Steele wrote: I wonder how many people are running actual businesses as token store. It's a hobby for me.

The IRS expects you to pay taxes if you make money, hobby or no. And yes, I do.

yep...and it sucks

Anthony Barnstable wrote: Kirk, you mentioned being able to say you bought 1 $8k pack and sold half of the tokens for $5000 and being able to report that as $1000 profit.

If you buy 1 $8k pack and sell the 32 PYPs and 8 of the random Ultra Rares for say $100 each for $4000, can you report it as selling about half of your inventory, because assessed on a value per token, it roughly is? Or do you have to assess it based solely on number of tokens sold relative to number of tokens received from the order?

I really hope it's the former, otherwise that's just harsh.

To be clear I'm pretty experienced in these areas but I'm not a CPA, etc, so i don't know the answer for sure. But as I understand it (and implement it) you can assign "fair" values to the tokens. So for $8k I actually get about 41 URs including the random ones, so I assign them a greater value than I would assign to a random rare, uncommon, etc. I have a method I used to divide up the cost between the tokens and then that helps me determine my remaining COGS at the end of the year. My problem is I really try to do everything accurately which creates a lot of work for myself but hopefully will cover my butt if I ever get audited. Things like golden tickets really make things complicated, and transmuting. For example: in general a rare is worth more than 6x more than a common, but when making trade goods it is only worth 6x more than a common.

Hmmm. I certainly have bought, sold, and traded tokens. Never really considered the fact that taxable profit could be involved. If I both buy and sell, wouldn't it all come out about even? I don't think I do it enough to make it worth reporting. It's an interesting question.

Makes me appreciate the big shop-owners even more! Thanks, Lax, Kirk, Mike, et al!

bpsymington wrote: Hmmm. I certainly have bought, sold, and traded tokens. Never really considered the fact that taxable profit could be involved. If I both buy and sell, wouldn't it all come out about even? I don't think I do it enough to make it worth reporting. It's an interesting question.

Makes me appreciate the big shop-owners even more! Thanks, Lax, Kirk, Mike, et al!

If you sell some tokens for profit and others at a loss then it may very well balance out. Of course you don't know for sure unless you track it, but it should be small enough to avoid any IRS issues. Obviously the bigger your presence, the more volume you have, and the more business-like your activities are the greater chance you'll be scrutinized.

Without getting too political the reality is that every American violates the tax code every year unintentionally since it is just too complicated to understand all of it. Then others skirt the edge. And others blatantly violate it. Personally I try to follow it as well as I can which is all that can be expected IMO.

I don;t know if you have this over there but here we can contact the tax department and ask for a response in writing, that response is then binding on the tax department (even if it's not technically right). I've used this several times with the A.T.O.

when in doubt ask anonymously first.

Kirk Bauer wrote:

bpsymington wrote: Hmmm. I certainly have bought, sold, and traded tokens. Never really considered the fact that taxable profit could be involved. If I both buy and sell, wouldn't it all come out about even? I don't think I do it enough to make it worth reporting. It's an interesting question.

Makes me appreciate the big shop-owners even more! Thanks, Lax, Kirk, Mike, et al!

If you sell some tokens for profit and others at a loss then it may very well balance out. Of course you don't know for sure unless you track it, but it should be small enough to avoid any IRS issues. Obviously the bigger your presence, the more volume you have, and the more business-like your activities are the greater chance you'll be scrutinized.

Without getting too political the reality is that every American violates the tax code every year unintentionally since it is just too complicated to understand all of it. Then others skirt the edge. And others blatantly violate it. Personally I try to follow it as well as I can which is all that can be expected IMO.

and you haven't even begun to breach the sales tax topic yet. You've been talking about federal income tax but in many states there is also sales tax that is to be accounted for and collected and remitted to the state.

Kirk Bauer wrote:

bpsymington wrote: Hmmm. I certainly have bought, sold, and traded tokens. Never really considered the fact that taxable profit could be involved. If I both buy and sell, wouldn't it all come out about even? I don't think I do it enough to make it worth reporting. It's an interesting question.

Makes me appreciate the big shop-owners even more! Thanks, Lax, Kirk, Mike, et al!

If you sell some tokens for profit and others at a loss then it may very well balance out. Of course you don't know for sure unless you track it, but it should be small enough to avoid any IRS issues. Obviously the bigger your presence, the more volume you have, and the more business-like your activities are the greater chance you'll be scrutinized.

Without getting too political the reality is that every American violates the tax code every year unintentionally since it is just too complicated to understand all of it. Then others skirt the edge. And others blatantly violate it. Personally I try to follow it as well as I can which is all that can be expected IMO.

Well there are rules for what is a hobby vs a business: www.irs.gov/uac/Is-Your-Hobby-a-For-Profit-Endeavor%3F

I don't worry about it because I am operating at a loss and have no intention to profit. Occasionally selling does not turn it into a business.

Most of us, though some selling may occur, would be considered a hobby, as I am sure most of us would have a loss most years when the travel, food, lodging, and cost of playing (for the special tokens of course) where in play…..and that whole based on inventory thing, yuk!

Now with that said. Our tax code is a mess. It is (was) unconstitutional IMO. 1913 was the date of infamy (created individual income tax system and I believe lowered tariffs on imported goods). It should have never been allowed. It let the federal government into our homes to look at our papers, violating parts of the bill of rights. A flat tax, taxed once at purchase (Fair Tax) is by far the best way. Going to the fiar tax system was my proposal when I ran for Congress.

Donald Rients wrote: Most of us, though some selling may occur, would be considered a hobby, as I am sure most of us would have a loss most years when the travel, food, lodging, and cost of playing (for the special tokens of course) where in play…..and that whole based on inventory thing, yuk!

Now with that said. Our tax code is a mess. It is (was) unconstitutional IMO. 1913 was the date of infamy (created individual income tax system and I believe lowered tariffs on imported goods). It should have never been allowed. It let the federal government into our homes to look at our papers, violating parts of the bill of rights. A flat tax, taxed once at purchase (Fair Tax) is by far the best way. Going to the fiar tax system was my proposal when I ran for Congress.

Regardless of the merits or drawbacks of the current system, help me understand how something established through a constitutional amendment can be unconstitutional.

The IRS would consider most people's token trading a hobby, but remember you must still pay income tax on income from a hobby.

Harlax wrote:

Donald Rients wrote: Most of us, though some selling may occur, would be considered a hobby, as I am sure most of us would have a loss most years when the travel, food, lodging, and cost of playing (for the special tokens of course) where in play…..and that whole based on inventory thing, yuk!

Now with that said. Our tax code is a mess. It is (was) unconstitutional IMO. 1913 was the date of infamy (created individual income tax system and I believe lowered tariffs on imported goods). It should have never been allowed. It let the federal government into our homes to look at our papers, violating parts of the bill of rights. A flat tax, taxed once at purchase (Fair Tax) is by far the best way. Going to the fiar tax system was my proposal when I ran for Congress.

Regardless of the merits or drawbacks of the current system, help me understand how something established through a constitutional amendment can be unconstitutional.

Yes, I know, that is a quagmire, but IMO it is, if is technically or not is another story. I am not a lawyer and I am not a (bought and paid for) Politian. I do believe it was the intention of our founders to not have a personal income tax due to violating our privacy. I do not believe the 16th amendment addresses for instance the Bill of Rights. It does not address the search and seizure of the 4th amendment, nor does it further address parts of the 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th, and 10th amendments. For instance, when the 18th amendment was removed it was because another amendment, 21st, directly repealed it. The 16th amendment did not address the rights set by the other amendments that it steps on. Just my opinion and why we need to move to a fair tax system.

Another process deemed “constitutional” is Supreme Court decisions. Some in the past, and more of the last few years the Court has made/rewrote laws (making themselves legislatures) rather than interpret laws. Even though these “laws” are now followed, IMO the court had made things legal that are unconstitutional as well. But now we have gone way off topic of this post!

Jeff Martin wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote: Am I seriously the first person to notice this? Or did everybody else already know?

truedungeon.com/2016-token-collection

You are the first...it appears.

This is designed as a cool thank you to the BIG token collectors who fund so much of our True Dungeon fun. I thought they deserved something other than a Wish Ring. Like the 1st Segment of the Rod of Seven Parts, the 1st Orb is an unannounced thank you gift. They should be arriving on Thursday or Friday to many of the Onyx set collectors - included with their modules.

A few of these will be in the treasure generators every year.

I'm sorry if this is perceived as some how a bad thing or elitist. I guess my brain just does not work that way. I can tell you that event tickets would be a lot more expensive without the Onyx collectors' support - so giving them a cool thank you helps everyone.

The transmuted Orbs won't be these uber-powerful tokens, but they will provide some geeky fun for big TD fans. That seems appropriate for the thanked group.

Okay, my $0.02...

I'm not happy with this. Why?

This past year Team Yeti all contributed to different degrees that we put in for an $8000 order. That is about 10-11 of us and now we have to figure out a way to see who gets the SOoD.

And, since this will be a transmute Token a few years from now the person who gets it this year will obviously want/need the ones for the following years, too. Otherwise what's the point of each of us just having one for different years??

The answer is not having Jeff ask every person that put in for an $8000 order how many people chipped in and send one SOoD for every person that contributed.

I guess Team Yeti has to have its first ever naked gladiatorial contest.