TOPIC: Supreme Orb of Dragonkind

Jason Smith wrote: I could have saved myself a lot of money attempting to build out some of the more expensive items, such as the RoSP which I've given up on, because it's value now is priced as a collector's item, not one whose cost is attuned to its game play benefits.

I don't know about that - the Rod of Seven Parts provides:

1. +1 to the three most relevant stats.
2. +1 to saves
3. +1 to HP.
4. Once a year provides an ability to play a level 5 prestige class.
5. Counts as 1/2 of the Eldritch 2 piece bonus, and 1/3 of the Eldritch 3 piece bonus

As a slotless token.

Barring Artifact tokens I think this is arguably the most powerful token in existence. It is clearly mandatory in any "best in slot" build. It is also very rare.

Now - if your point is: "I can make a build that is 90%+ as good (maybe 99% as good) as a RoSP build for $50 or so, getting 10% better can not be worth $2000+" - then I could agree with you from a cost to benefit ratio. However it doesn't change the fact that the RoSP will always improve any build that doesn't have one, and more people want them than have them.

However by the same argument I think it's very hard to justify the purchase of any UR token - URs typically provide a bonus of around +1 more than a rare token. A rare costs 5-10% of a UR.

It's not up to me or you to decide what a fair price is for a RoSP - it's up to the market, and the market suggests that last year $2500 or so was a fair price (at least 3 changed hands around that price). Right now Chad has 2 up for sale at $2200 and they are still available.

I'd suggest that with the exception of Artisan tokens, wooden tokens, and maybe a few others, there is no useful distinction between in game benefit and collector value - it's not as if there are two prices: one for collectors and one to people who just want it for the game play benefits.

Jason, it's dangerous to assign motives to people. Big buyers subsidize everyone else with large token purchases. Their motives are irrelevant. The fact is, if people didn't buy a lot of tokens, TD tickets would be so expensive, or the event would be lamer, so that not enough people would play it to keep it going.

The beauty of the game is that people can spend as much or as little as they want. It's a hobby. You don't have to justify your level of spending, and no one else has to understand or agree with you.. Same goes for everyone else. You don't get to judge them, either.

As for why do people spend so much to operate at a loss - to be honest, I ask myself the same thing every year.

There have been multiple discussions on the value of the transmute program to the game. If you're new to the forums, you've missed a lot of them. And maybe you've missed that EVERYONE has input on the game, regardless of what, if anything, they spend on extra tokens. Some people are just more vocal than others.

You seem very upset about something, and I really can't understand what. But whatever it is, it's leading you to say some pretty offensive things. For instance, I'm sure you didn't mean to call Smak, Kirk, and Chad liars, but that's basically what you did. For the record, I'm convinced they aren't.

I run a loss on token purchases pretty much every year, but that's mainly because quite a bit of my spending goes to outfitting my entire party. I'm guessing if big token buyers are running a loss, that is part of the reason why, another reason might be building up equity (store inventory). And, overall, I'd also guess that many big token buyers / sellers are running a profit. I'm pretty sure Gaming Etc. runs a profit on tokens, or they wouldn't be in the business.

But as others have said, it's really nobody's business why people buy tokens, and whether they make a profit or loss on them. And for those that do have a loss, it's not a lot different than other hobbies people enjoy that cost money. You could say that GENCON itself is a big loss financially for most people, but they get enough enjoyment out of it to make it worthwhile. And, token purchases are a main reason that True Dungeon exists in it's current form for all of us to enjoy, so that is a big reason a lot of us buy tokens.

Jason Smith wrote: I am sorry if I called some people liars or I offended anyone. It was not intended. This will be my final post to these formus, except perhaps to reserve a few more tokens from Matt Hayward and purchase the last Eldritch Ore Bar I need for a legendary transmute. After I have the 2016 Boots of South Wind, the only tokens I intend to purchase moving forward are the teeth. I will forget about making a $1K order next year and forward. And they all lived happily ever after. The end.

Jason, I hope you reconsider quitting the forums. Everyone's opinions are valuable and appreciated , even if (or maybe especially if) they aren't the majority viewpoint.

Jason Smith wrote: I am sorry if I called some people liars or I offended anyone. It was not intended. This will be my final post to these formus, except perhaps to reserve a few more tokens from Matt Hayward and purchase the last Eldritch Ore Bar I need for a legendary transmute. After I have the 2016 Boots of South Wind, the only tokens I intend to purchase moving forward are the teeth. I will forget about making a $1K order next year and forward. And they all lived happily ever after. The end.

I'm sorry you feel that way.
I don't think anybody wanted this outcome. I'm sorry if anything I said gave you that impression.

I'm sure it helps Jeff make better decisions when people discuss all sides of an issue, as long as everyone keeps things civil. I hope you'll reconsider.

Jason Smith wrote: I am sorry if I called some people liars or I offended anyone. It was not intended. This will be my final post to these formus, except perhaps to reserve a few more tokens from Matt Hayward and purchase the last Eldritch Ore Bar I need for a legendary transmute. After I have the 2016 Boots of South Wind, the only tokens I intend to purchase moving forward are the teeth. I will forget about making a $1K order next year and forward. And they all lived happily ever after. The end.

Since Jason isn't going to really post anymore I will make this comment relating to this thread to the community. Jason was speaking how the RoSP was priced on collector value rather then in-game value. Well then would that also apply to a legendary. As Matt eluded to if you compare the difference between a relic and legendary there is only a minor difference in power (say +2 hit/damage for weapons) but the legendary cost is clearly 3-5 times (or ~$1000). There are many more inexpensive ways to get that bonus. Why is he doing it - because he wants the best in slot item for his class and clearly RoSP is the also the BiS. So I would say although both a legendary and a RoSP are inflated by collector value they still clearly hold high percentage of in-game value because people want the best in slot.

Ed

MasterED wrote:

Jason Smith wrote: I am sorry if I called some people liars or I offended anyone. It was not intended. This will be my final post to these formus, except perhaps to reserve a few more tokens from Matt Hayward and purchase the last Eldritch Ore Bar I need for a legendary transmute. After I have the 2016 Boots of South Wind, the only tokens I intend to purchase moving forward are the teeth. I will forget about making a $1K order next year and forward. And they all lived happily ever after. The end.

Since Jason isn't going to really post anymore I will make this comment relating to this thread to the community. Jason was speaking how the RoSP was priced on collector value rather then in-game value. Well then would that also apply to a legendary. As Matt eluded to if you compare the difference between a relic and legendary there is only a minor difference in power (say +2 hit/damage for weapons) but the legendary cost is clearly 3-5 times (or ~$1000). There are many more inexpensive ways to get that bonus. Why is he doing it - because he wants the best in slot item for his class and clearly RoSP is the also the BiS. So I would say although both a legendary and a RoSP are inflated by collector value they still clearly hold high percentage of in-game value because people want the best in slot.

Ed

well moving from rare to UR can be 10-20 times the price for +1

MasterED wrote:

Jason Smith wrote: I am sorry if I called some people liars or I offended anyone. It was not intended. This will be my final post to these formus, except perhaps to reserve a few more tokens from Matt Hayward and purchase the last Eldritch Ore Bar I need for a legendary transmute. After I have the 2016 Boots of South Wind, the only tokens I intend to purchase moving forward are the teeth. I will forget about making a $1K order next year and forward. And they all lived happily ever after. The end.

Since Jason isn't going to really post anymore I will make this comment relating to this thread to the community. Jason was speaking how the RoSP was priced on collector value rather then in-game value. Well then would that also apply to a legendary. As Matt eluded to if you compare the difference between a relic and legendary there is only a minor difference in power (say +2 hit/damage for weapons) but the legendary cost is clearly 3-5 times (or ~$1000). There are many more inexpensive ways to get that bonus. Why is he doing it - because he wants the best in slot item for his class and clearly RoSP is the also the BiS. So I would say although both a legendary and a RoSP are inflated by collector value they still clearly hold high percentage of in-game value because people want the best in slot.

Ed

I think the high prices for tokens like Legendary tokens and RoSP are driven by game value rather than collector value. I think relatively few people are buying them to complete a collection and aren't playing them. I just think that there are a number of people that are willing to pay pretty high prices for the relatively small gain in power (and sometimes significant gains in power) that the upper end tokens provide. If I was outfitting just myself instead of an entire group, I'd probably be one of those people.

A big part of why legendaries are expensive is that they are designed to be. Otherwise, they wouldn't accomplish their objective of soaking up all the excess tokens.

And people don't want to spend thousands on a token and then sell it for a big loss.

Whether any particular person thinks they're worth what they cost to make, and why, is another story.

It appears the biggest disconnect here for Jason is the motivation of the resellers. I always thought the resellers were either breaking even or taking a loss but using their stores to help subsidize a pricey hobby they enjoy. I'm not a reseller so I don't want to assume but that was just my gut feeling.

I suppose I can understand his sentiment if his impression that the only people who are being rewarded are the people who are making mountains of cash of the tokens anyway. But it appears from everyone's comments and my previous assumptions that this is very far from the truth.

I don't understand being upset about the price of tokens though. The market bears what the market bears. They wouldn't cost that much if people weren't buying them at that price. Most of the tokens are also too expensive for my blood. I have a very lucrative job and I can afford them but I'd much rather spend my money on other things.

All in all it just comes down to being content with what you have and can justify spending. It is, after all, a game we play that is just as enjoyable with a single pack of tokens or a handful of legendaries. It's about the people and the experience. The pieces of plastic are just one small facet of the experience. Of course, just my opinion

mattnaik wrote: It appears the biggest disconnect here for Jason is the motivation of the resellers. I always thought the resellers were either breaking even or taking a loss but using their stores to help subsidize a pricey hobby they enjoy. I'm not a reseller so I don't want to assume but that was just my gut feeling.

If I were Jeff, I would much rather ship one $8k order than 32 $250 orders. So, big buyers are doing a service to him as well, saving him time and letting act more as a wholesaler.

He must feel that way, too, or he wouldn't offer more incentives for bigger orders.

Matt/Brad,

It is an interesting discussion for sure. I doubt anybody, including Jeff, is becoming rich off of True Dungeon. I think (hope?) Jeff is able to make a good living doing it full time though because that is awesome for players like us. I certainly don't think anybody is going to be able to make a living off of buying and reselling tokens, though, because the market is just too small. By my math if I could personally pocket 10% of all token sales each year it would be (1) very amazing and unrealistic and (2) still not enough to support my family of four, especially if I'm going to be able to afford to go to Gencon each year and play TD

I certainly do think that Jeff gets significant benefits out of selling $8k packs rather than a bunch of smaller orders. I think if there were no resellers at all and everybody went directly to Jeff then he'd have to hire somebody to handle the order processing and fulfillment. So if a few resellers make a few thousand bucks a year in profit that is still better than Jeff having to hire somebody. Additionally there are a lot of players that like the ability to buy "singles" and I think it would be virtually impossible for Jeff to offer that service to players without a significant investment in time and space to store and organize the tokens. I also think that he is smart enough to never get in the business of setting prices on individual tokens as that would be a much different thing than selling random packs.

Also I can't speak for other resellers but for me at least I do this completely legitimately, which means I get to calculate my profit each year and pay income taxes on that profit. Now what many people probably don't realize is that even for small businesses the IRS requires the COGS (cost of goods sold) to be done an an accrual basis. This means that profit/loss isn't as straightforward as it might appear.

So, for example, let's say that I buy a $8k order and sell half of the tokens for $5k after expenses. Did I make a profit or a loss? Even though I end the year with $3k less than I started with, in reality I made a $1k profit and have $4k in end-of-year inventory. So then I pay taxes on that $1k which in my case is about $500, so in this scenario I would have ended the year with $3500 less cash than I started with but theoretically $4000 in inventory. So to make any real money legitimately you have to invest quite a bit into it and it will take years to actually generate positive cash-flow, if ever.