TOPIC: Elemental Eldritch Set with Lenses of Divine Sight

Pearls would work the same as the rings right?

And gloves of healing?

And uncommon druid shirt...as long as we are listing things.

I don't have a particular side in this debate, just trying to offer some data, given the clarified proposed rules to help people evaluate the magnitude of the change.

Assume all skill tests are passed. Druids totals account for 1/2 a spell surge bonus on their best spell (as sometimes they will use surge on a damage spell instead).

Character Profile	HP Healing Before Change	HP Healing After Change	Difference
4th level Cleric, Gloves of Healing, Ring of Focus, Lenses of Divine Sight, Eldritch Set Bonus	336	246	27% decrease
5th level Cleric, Gloves of Glory, +3 and +5 Rings of Focus, Lenses of Divine Sight, Eldritch Set Bonus	528	428	19% decrease
5th level Druid, Druid's Sacred Vestments, Gloves of Healing, Ring of Focus, Lenses of Divine Sight, Eldritch Set Bonus	284	214	25% decrease
5th level Druid, Druid's Sacred Vestments, Gloves of Glory, +3 and +5 Rings of Focus, Lenses of Divine Sight, Eldritch Set Bonus	368	298	19% decrease

I'd observe that the final impact of the change is to remove 10 HP of healing from the character per single target healing spell cast as a spell (not scroll) - each such spell now gets a 10 point healing bonus pool, not 10 points for each of two targets from lenses of divine sight.

Mike Steele wrote: We seem to have a different memory regarding the HoP Reprint Policy. It was clearly defined, but Jeff kept finding ways around it, it was never really honored.

We have the same memory about it. In fact, last year during the Charm of Avarice discussion, I specifically reminded everyone on the forum of all the ways that Jeff toed the line. Yet the CoA went far beyond past efforts.

None of the examples you give are really analogous with what is happening here, taking a well defined and established set bonus and making a major change to it.

Firstly, not everyone thinks it is a major change. I don't think it is major. Neither does Brian.

Darkangel claims that the Celestial set also underwent a change.

There have also been LOTS of changes to the Might set over the years.

And since the primary issue seems to be the interaction with the Lens of Divine Sight, if they really want they could simply issue equivalent errata on the Lenses instead of the Eldritch set.

Alvin Oliver wrote: That is because of a disparity in tokens. Same availability of tokens the blurring is only when there is a token that gives one class the ability of another or is only able to be equipped by one class that gives them a unequal chance to buff a certain aspect of their character, not with +saves items +AC items that all can use.

I disagree.

If they was:

Ring of Defense (usable by All): +10 AC
Charm of Defense (usable by All): +10 AC
Ioun Stone of Defense of Defense (usable by All): +10 AC
Earcuff of Defense (usable by All): +10 AC
Shirt of Defense (usable by All): +10 AC
Duck Hat of Defense (usable by All): +10 AC
Codpiece of Defense (usable by All): +10 AC

If these were all available, then the AC difference between a Paladin and a Wizard becomes much less relevant and the class feature of the Paladin of being able to wear better armor becomes insignificant.

Donald Rients wrote: Not the point though. The point is that these items were obtained (especially the lenses) with an understanding that it had X affects. The X affect is now an -x affect. Would your opinion be the same if the Fire Giant Girdle was changed from +7 to +5? After all it would still be a +5, and you could beef that up with the Mithral Gauntlets. Note: I don't have a Charm of Spell Swapping.

Except that there are TONS of tokens where rules changes and power creep have resulted in them not doing (or not doing well) whatever they were initially intended for when they were bought.

So I find it rather amusing that there are so many people complaining about this UR getting hosed due to a rule change, yet usually those people are silent when similar UR's are getting hosed due to power creep.

Druegar wrote: In these examples, the healer passed the skill test. The same principles apply if the skill test is not passed, but the per-target total (not the pool) will be -3, not including CMW as that has no skill test.

Because I am lazy and a tool, I probably f'd something up with all the copy/pasting I did for these examples. Please feel free to calmly point out my error without assuming the sky is falling. I'm looking at you CL!

---

Cure Minor Wounds (1 HP on 1 target)
Lenses of Divine Sight (single target becomes 2 targets)
Ring of Focus (1 HP per target)
Eldritch healing bonus (pool of 10)
=
two targets each heal 2 HP, plus a pool of 10 HP to be divided among the two targets.

Cure Minor Wounds (1 HP on 1 target)
Lenses of Divine Sight (single target becomes 2 targets)
Ring of Greater Focus (3 HP per target)
Eldritch healing bonus (pool of 10)
=
two targets each heal 4 HP, plus a pool of 10 HP to be divided among the two targets.

Cure Minor Wounds (1 HP on 1 target)
Lenses of Divine Sight (single target becomes 2 targets)
Relsa's Ring of Supreme Focus (5 HP per target)
Eldritch healing bonus (pool of 10)
=
two targets each heal 6 HP, plus a pool of 10 HP to be divided among the two targets.

---

Cure Light Wounds (8 HP on 1 target)
Lenses of Divine Sight (single target becomes 2 targets)
Ring of Focus (1 HP per target)
Eldritch healing bonus (pool of 10)
=
two targets each heal 9 HP, plus a pool of 10 HP to be divided among the two targets.

Cure Light Wounds (8 HP on 1 target)
Lenses of Divine Sight (single target becomes 2 targets)
Ring of Greater Focus (3 HP per target)
Eldritch healing bonus (pool of 10)
=
two targets each heal 11 HP, plus a pool of 10 HP to be divided among the two targets.

Cure Light Wounds (8 HP on 1 target)
Lenses of Divine Sight (single target becomes 2 targets)
Relsa's Ring of Supreme Focus (5 HP per target)
Eldritch healing bonus (pool of 10)
=
two targets each heal 13 HP, plus a pool of 10 HP to be divided among the two targets.

---

Cure Moderate Wounds (16 HP on 1 target)
Lenses of Divine Sight (single target becomes 2 targets)
Ring of Focus (1 HP per target)
Eldritch healing bonus (pool of 10)
=
two targets each heal 17 HP, plus a pool of 10 HP to be divided among the two targets.

Cure Moderate Wounds (16 HP on 1 target)
Lenses of Divine Sight (single target becomes 2 targets)
Ring of Greater Focus (3 HP per target)
Eldritch healing bonus (pool of 10)
=
two targets each heal 19 HP, plus a pool of 10 HP to be divided among the two targets.

Cure Moderate Wounds (16 HP on 1 target)
Lenses of Divine Sight (single target becomes 2 targets)
Relsa's Ring of Supreme Focus (5 HP per target)
Eldritch healing bonus (pool of 10)
=
two targets each heal 21 HP, plus a pool of 10 HP to be divided among the two targets.

---

Cure Serious Wounds (24 HP on 1 target)
Lenses of Divine Sight (single target becomes 2 targets)
Ring of Focus (1 HP per target)
Eldritch healing bonus (pool of 10)
=
two targets each heal 25 HP, plus a pool of 10 HP to be divided among the two targets.

Cure Serious Wounds (24 HP on 1 target)
Lenses of Divine Sight (single target becomes 2 targets)
Ring of Greater Focus (3 HP per target)
Eldritch healing bonus (pool of 10)
=
two targets each heal 27 HP, plus a pool of 10 HP to be divided among the two targets.

Cure Serious Wounds (24 HP on 1 target)
Lenses of Divine Sight (single target becomes 2 targets)
Relsa's Ring of Supreme Focus (5 HP per target)
Eldritch healing bonus (pool of 10)
=
two targets each heal 29 HP, plus a pool of 10 HP to be divided among the two targets.

Does that sufficiently illustrate the process?

So this change specifically means that + to healing is duplicated for every effect in the game except for the 2 piece Eldritch set bonus?

That's totally not an inconsistent ruling that requires room DMs to know another errata.

If the intent is to fix the OP mix why not just nerf the 2 piece bonus instead of making a specific one off ruling like this.

In interest of full disclosure I do not run a Cleric/Druid but do have the 2-piece set bonus but I will add my $.02 here.

I feel that significant token modifications (not rule clarifications) should be done at the end of May with a formal release process. If WYC events continue this gives Jeff an opportunity to get final feedback there.

In any gaming system there is always going to be a need for power revisions. We should have a formal system with good clear notification.

My suggestion for future powers/tokens is increasing power generally produces less "flashback" then reducing them.

Ed

Incognito wrote: Ioun Stone of Defense of Defense (usable by All): +10 AC

I demand Defense^2 Ioun Stones!

Incognito wrote: So I find it rather amusing that there are so many people complaining about this UR getting hosed due to a rule change, yet usually those people are silent when similar UR's are getting hosed due to power creep.

Power creep is annoying but expected in a game like TD. If every year the new tokens weren't any better than the last it wouldn't help sales at all. It's sad that URs are slowly devalued over time because of this, but we can all see it coming, it happens slowly, and it makes sense. So there is not as much outcry over it. (There is still some.)

The reason I am complaining so much about this change is because it happened out of the blue for seemingly no reason.

I concur, it appears to be a very targeted Nerf that would be the exception to the rule.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:
That's totally not an inconsistent ruling that requires room DMs to know another errata.

As an AC (sort of a DM supervisor), I don't feel this is going to be much of an issue for DMs. I think people with an UR and an eldritch set are going to be in the minority of cases. The DMs major roles in the spell is to mark it off the card and to do the bead test. Most players will know how much healing to apply - those that don't are unlikely to be carrying a 2-piece eldritch set.

I have no interest in going through every token and specifying whether or not in interacts with LoDS, so I'll say once again:
The only change that was made last night was to the Eldritch set bonus.