TOPIC: Elemental Eldritch Set with Lenses of Divine Sight

Incognito wrote:

Alvin Oliver wrote: Yes but even if it stacked with a Monk's 5th level ability, then it would take away the unique power that defines the Monk as a class. That is like the Rod giving everyone the ability to Cast a Magic Missile but the wizard would get a second one.

The portion of the RoSP isn't useless as a monk it just makes one of our class defining abilities useless.

Kind of like the:

- Bowl of Spirit Sight
- Gloves of Deflection
- Ring of Feather Fall / Cloak of Gliding / Cloak of the Bat
- Figurine of Power: Panther
- Lamps of the Marid & Efreeti
- +2 Assassin's Crossbow
- Horn of Blasting
- Medallion of Greyhawk
- Ring of Evasion / Ring of Improved Evasion / Khing's Supreme Ring of Evasion

Yes...

Bowl - Druid
Gloves - Monk
Ring/Cloak/Bat/wind set - Monk
Panther - Fighter
Lamps - Druid/Cleric
Crossbow - Dwarf Fighter
Horn of Blasting - Bard, Druid, Wizards
Medallion - Monk, Paladin(?)
Ring of Evasion - Monk
RoSP - Monk

Thanks for pointing out it seems some of the best abilities of Monk are also the most duplicated.

Maybe it would be beneficial for rules changes so have a release and a discussion. It doesn't make much sense to make changes after the new tokens have been released for that year.

Alvin Oliver wrote:

Kind of like the:

- Bowl of Spirit Sight
- Gloves of Deflection
- Ring of Feather Fall / Cloak of Gliding / Cloak of the Bat
- Figurine of Power: Panther
- Lamps of the Marid & Efreeti
- +2 Assassin's Crossbow
- Horn of Blasting
- Medallion of Greyhawk
- Ring of Evasion / Ring of Improved Evasion / Khing's Supreme Ring of Evasion

Yes...

Bowl - Druid
Gloves - Monk
Ring/Cloak/Bat/wind set - Monk
Panther - Fighter
Lamps - Druid/Cleric
Crossbow - Dwarf Fighter
Horn of Blasting - Bard, Druid, Wizards
Medallion - Monk, Paladin(?)
Ring of Evasion - Monk
RoSP - Monk

Thanks for pointing out it seems some of the best abilities of Monk are also the most duplicated.

Which is also not surprising that the Monk easily has the most special abilities and immunities.

Maybe some of the other classes should be complaining because they don't have any worthwhile specials to even bother duplicating!

You could even argue that + saves items encroach on the save advantage that Monks, Druids, and Paladins have.

In contrast, Monks and Wizards benefit disproportionately from + AC items, which encroach on the AC advantage of the Cleric, Fighters, and Paladin.

Incognito wrote: Which is also not surprising that the Monk easily has the most special abilities and immunities.

Maybe some of the other classes should be complaining because they don't have any worthwhile specials to even bother duplicating!

You could even argue that + saves items encroach on the save advantage that Monks, Druids, and Paladins have.

In contrast, Monks and Wizards benefit disproportionately from + AC items, which encroach on the AC advantage of the Cleric, Fighters, and Paladin.

LOL I think that the saves and AC encroachment is a bit of a stretch

My thoughts on this:

I think it sucks but if Jeff thinks it is best for the game I will go along with it without another word. And yes it does affect me, I owe 2 pairs of LoDS and 1 Set of Eldritch and will have 2 sets next year. Still I understand that if he feels it makes the game in a state he doesn't want it to be, then I can respect that. That is all I have on this one folks.

Alvin Oliver wrote: LOL I think that the saves and AC encroachment is a bit of a stretch

Not really.

With more and more tokens (and more and more power creep), the differences between the classes blur.

Even nowadays, I see specialized Bards and Wizards with better melee hit/damage stats than average Fighter-types in the same party.

As the number of token bonuses approaches infinity, the static fixed differences between the classes inevitably approaches zero....

Incognito wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: First - those two item bonuses have been defined for years, and should stay in place as is.

Well, apparently that logic doesn't really work well with True Dungeon.

The HoP reprint policy was well defined and maintained for many years. Until one day when it wasn't.

The "swappable slots" rule was allowed for years. And then suddenly it wasn't.

Even the "Monk can't attack with the Orb of Might" was well-defined for years. Until it wasn't.

Jeff intentionally made the Eldritch Bonuses strong, I don't see why people are now singling those out to try to revise and weaken. I hope that Jeff doesn't allow that to happen.

Well, I certainly did not set this whole issue in motion (though I wonder who was convincing enough to do so). And I am not specifically singling out the Eldritch set. If anything, I think this particular problem is caused more by the Lenses of Divine Sight rather than the Eldritch set (which had its powers defined before the LoDS was even around).

We seem to have a different memory regarding the HoP Reprint Policy. It was clearly defined, but Jeff kept finding ways around it, it was never really honored. The HoP was offered again multiple times, and the Mithral Coin of Fate was probably the most blatant example. And I do share your unhappiness with that whole scenario.

None of the examples you give are really analogous with what is happening here, taking a well defined and established set bonus and making a major change to it.

George set this topic in motion with his question, but it seems pretty clear from this thread that Druegar is the one that discussed it with Jeff. That is one of the things that is pretty annoying about this whole situation, that a set bonus that was established after extensive discussions was reversed within hours by Jeff after getting input from possibly just one person. It would seem that if Jeff were going to consider such a major change to a set bonus that people spent years and/or thousands of dollars to obtain, it would have a bit of a discussion period before implementing the change. Hopefully he'll read these comments and I'm sure many emails and Personal Messages on the topic and reconsider. And I'm not blaming Druegar, as I know it's in his wheelhouse to bring issues like this to Jeff.

Incognito wrote:

Alvin Oliver wrote: LOL I think that the saves and AC encroachment is a bit of a stretch

Not really.

With more and more tokens (and more and more power creep), the differences between the classes blur.

Even nowadays, I see specialized Bards and Wizards with better melee hit/damage stats than average Fighter-types in the same party.

As the number of token bonuses approaches infinity, the static fixed differences between the classes inevitably approaches zero....

That is because of a disparity in tokens. Same availability of tokens the blurring is only when there is a token that gives one class the ability of another or is only able to be equipped by one class that gives them a unequal chance to buff a certain aspect of their character, not with +saves items +AC items that all can use.

Incognito wrote:

Donald Rients wrote: I had acquired the lenses for the Cleric and used the eldritch set on the Cleric due to the way the rules were (shown/taught to me by Carter at last years WYC). With this huge rule change the Cleric may start collecting dust.

Uh, I think the Cleric will still continue to be very strong.

Eldritch set is already insanely good for the Cleric. The extra healing from the Lenses will still be useful, even if it is not as ridiculously high as before. Not to mention Charm of Spell Swapping is actually good now due to the Eldritch set.

Not the point though. The point is that these items were obtained (especially the lenses) with an understanding that it had X affects. The X affect is now an -x affect. Would your opinion be the same if the Fire Giant Girdle was changed from +7 to +5? After all it would still be a +5, and you could beef that up with the Mithral Gauntlets. Note: I don't have a Charm of Spell Swapping.

I agree that making this change at this point is rather poor both from a design and from a business perspective. If people invest a lot of money into tokens they kind of expect their investment stay in effect. TD has a history of devaluing tokens through power creep year over year, and I can say it has at least affected my purchasing choices. But, if token rules are arbitrarily going to get retconed, it does not bode well for the continued maintenance of the customer base. Sure, you can always look to the next big buyers to take the place of those you drive off with power creep and retcons, but there are many defunct or struggling gaming companies that stand as cautionary testament to that business practice

And yet, that isn't even the biggest issue. This change adds yet another drop into the bucket of over-complexity that is already overflowing with regard to token rules in True Dungeon. It is already hard enough to remember all the rules written on the tokens and then remember how they interact with the set bonuses. But, if we are getting in the practice of continuously layering in ex post facto errata that is only found on the database (which isn't referenced in the dungeon) this is going to be unsustainable exceptionally quickly both from a player and DM perspective. Since there is current no plan in place to digitize the stats bestowed by tokens, the more streamlining that can be applied the better.

As a new player who's spent at least 5k gearing up for this year including RoSP and lenses I'm a little disappointed. Changes like this,and others, will make me think thrice before buying tokens in the future. I hope it is discussed further and an outcome produced that will make the majority happy.

Updated to show revised revised (aka original) totals

In these examples, the healer passed the skill test. The same principles apply if the skill test is not passed, but the total will be -3, not including CMW as that has no skill test.

Because I am lazy and a tool, I probably f'd something up with all the copy/pasting I did for these examples. Please feel free to calmly point out my error without assuming the sky is falling. I'm looking at you CL!

---

Cure Minor Wounds (1 HP on 1 target)
Lenses of Divine Sight (single target becomes 2 targets)
Ring of Focus (1 HP per target)
Eldritch healing bonus (10 HP per target)
=
two targets each heal 12 HP

Cure Minor Wounds (1 HP on 1 target)
Lenses of Divine Sight (single target becomes 2 targets)
Ring of Greater Focus (3 HP per target)
Eldritch healing bonus (10 HP per target)
=
two targets each heal 14 HP

Cure Minor Wounds (1 HP on 1 target)
Lenses of Divine Sight (single target becomes 2 targets)
Relsa's Ring of Supreme Focus (5 HP per target)
Eldritch healing bonus (10 HP per target)
=
two targets each heal 6 HP

---

Cure Light Wounds (8 HP on 1 target)
Lenses of Divine Sight (single target becomes 2 targets)
Ring of Focus (1 HP per target)
Eldritch healing bonus (10 HP per target)
=
two targets each heal 19 HP

Cure Light Wounds (8 HP on 1 target)
Lenses of Divine Sight (single target becomes 2 targets)
Ring of Greater Focus (3 HP per target)
Eldritch healing bonus (10 HP per target)
=
two targets each heal 21 HP

Cure Light Wounds (8 HP on 1 target)
Lenses of Divine Sight (single target becomes 2 targets)
Relsa's Ring of Supreme Focus (5 HP per target)
Eldritch healing bonus (10 HP per target)
=
two targets each heal 13 HP

---

Cure Moderate Wounds (16 HP on 1 target)
Lenses of Divine Sight (single target becomes 2 targets)
Ring of Focus (1 HP per target)
Eldritch healing bonus (10 HP per target)
=
two targets each heal 27 HP

Cure Moderate Wounds (16 HP on 1 target)
Lenses of Divine Sight (single target becomes 2 targets)
Ring of Greater Focus (3 HP per target)
Eldritch healing bonus (10 HP per target)
=
two targets each heal 29 HP

Cure Moderate Wounds (16 HP on 1 target)
Lenses of Divine Sight (single target becomes 2 targets)
Relsa's Ring of Supreme Focus (5 HP per target)
Eldritch healing bonus (10 HP per target)
=
two targets each heal 21 HP

---

Cure Serious Wounds (24 HP on 1 target)
Lenses of Divine Sight (single target becomes 2 targets)
Ring of Focus (1 HP per target)
Eldritch healing bonus (10 HP per target)
=
two targets each heal 35 HP

Cure Serious Wounds (24 HP on 1 target)
Lenses of Divine Sight (single target becomes 2 targets)
Ring of Greater Focus (3 HP per target)
Eldritch healing bonus (10 HP per target)
=
two targets each heal 37 HP

Cure Serious Wounds (24 HP on 1 target)
Lenses of Divine Sight (single target becomes 2 targets)
Relsa's Ring of Supreme Focus (5 HP per target)
Eldritch healing bonus (10 HP per target)
=
two targets each heal 39 HP