TOPIC: Elemental Eldritch Set with Lenses of Divine Sight

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

bpsymington wrote: I don't really have a dog in this fight, since I am not a healing class and I don't have any eldritch items , (I will be getting the boots next year). But I think this is a fairly minor change. A one point heal spell becomes two 9-point heal spells (with RoF, LoDS, and eldritch set) - still seems pretty cool to me.

Has Jeff said there would be a 3-item eldritch bonus?

The problem is that this change is not affecting the Eldritch items which very few people have. It's changing the function of how an existing, out of print ultra rare token functions. It will affect EVERY SINGLE SPELL duplicated by the Lenses of Divine Sight as the ruling changes the effect of the lenses from the printed EXACT DUPLICATION effect to an errata'd Single Target to Multi-Target effect. This change means any spell effected by the Lenses now has to use the healing pool. Effectively cutting all bonus healing items power in half for healers.

I thought Druegar made the point that the lenses work exactly the same (each spell gets the RoF bonus, for example) - it's just the eldritch bonus that creates a healing/damage pool. I would double-check the language, but the gorram school has apparently started blocking access to the TokenDB.

bpsymington wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

bpsymington wrote: I don't really have a dog in this fight, since I am not a healing class and I don't have any eldritch items , (I will be getting the boots next year). But I think this is a fairly minor change. A one point heal spell becomes two 9-point heal spells (with RoF, LoDS, and eldritch set) - still seems pretty cool to me.

Has Jeff said there would be a 3-item eldritch bonus?

I'm not sure where this assumption came from that everyone using the Lenses and Eldritch Set would have at least the Relic version of the Ring of Focus. I'm sure that's not the case. Assuming additional bonus items like that throws the calculations off and makes it look worse than it is, in my opinion.

That's true re: the RoF, although I would guess most people with an eldritch set would have the relic ring, but it wouldn't be everyone.

Because of the way the 2 piece Eldritch set worked with the LoDS we chose not to get the ring, as I'm sure that the people that had the 2 piece set would determine that +3 more healing on 2 spells (before this change) was not worth giving up something like Improved Evasion on your healer, or more AC...

Mike Steele wrote: I think it would be problematic for the spell resistance to exceed 100%. How would you explain to someone that had obtained tokens that granted (for example) 20% reduction in spell resistance that they still had zero percent chance of success?

This is all purely theoretical but I imagine a greater than 100% spell resistance situation would exceedingly rare (only on Epic or Hellish type difficulty levels and where Eldritch set "-100% spell resistance" is common).

In those cases, having greater than 100% spell resistance could actually make those tokens (Charm of the Cabal & +2 Rod of Disjunction) *more* useful. Because right now, their anti-spell resistance pales in comparison to the benefit offered by the Eldritch set. If the two effects stacked (Charm + Eldritch resulted in -120% Spell Resistance) then the Charm would be better than it currently is.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: This change means any spell effected by the Lenses now has to use the healing pool. Effectively cutting all bonus healing items power in half for healers.

Kolixela,
From that wording, I'm not sure you are grokking the change--but maybe you are. Would you mind giving a detailed breakdown of how you think it works now?

Incognito wrote:

Alvin Oliver wrote: The bolded statement above would be a copy of the Monk's 5th level ability. As it is now the RoSP pretty much tramples that ability, so if it is going to be changed please have it not step on a current character ability, as we have already bit hit this year hard by the rules due the no weapon swap from bracers or set items rules.

If that were to be the change, it would be simple enough to add a clause (stacks with the 5th level Monk to ignore the first -20 damage reduction).

Yes, that portion of the RoSP ability is currently useless to monks.

Yes but even if it stacked with a Monk's 5th level ability, then it would take away the unique power that defines the Monk as a class. That is like the Rod giving everyone the ability to Cast a Magic Missile but the wizard would get a second one.

The portion of the RoSP isn't useless as a monk it just makes one of our class defining abilities useless.

I think it's a mistake to plan on making wholesale changes to the Eldritch 2 Item bonuses while designing the 3 Item Bonuses. First - those two item bonuses have been defined for years, and should stay in place as is. Second, somehow making up for weakening 2 Item Bonuses by having stronger 3 Item Bonuses is a flawed approach, because there will be many people that have only two Eldritch Items, so they would be penalized by the weaker 2 Item Bonuses but not gain any benefit from the 3 Item Bonuses.

Jeff intentionally made the Eldritch Bonuses strong, I don't see why people are now singling those out to try to revise and weaken. I hope that Jeff doesn't allow that to happen.

bpsymington wrote: I don't really have a dog in this fight, since I am not a healing class and I don't have any eldritch items , (I will be getting the boots next year). But I think this is a fairly minor change. A one point heal spell becomes two 9-point heal spells (with RoF, LoDS, and eldritch set) - still seems pretty cool to me.

Has Jeff said there would be a 3-item eldritch bonus?

Any MEC-using wizard has a dog in this fight. Using that charm can completely monopolize the party's healing. The healing abilities of the LoDS and the 2-piece Eldritch off-set that charm. I often lend out my rod and ring to a cleric or druid on my runs who doesn't have it instead of equipping my own character with them.

Mike Steele wrote: I think it's a mistake to plan on making wholesale changes to the Eldritch 2 Item bonuses while designing the 3 Item Bonuses. First - those two item bonuses have been defined for years, and should stay in place as is. Second, somehow making up for weakening 2 Item Bonuses by having stronger 3 Item Bonuses is a flawed approach, because there will be many people that have only two Eldritch Items, so they would be penalized by the weaker 2 Item Bonuses but not gain any benefit from the 3 Item Bonuses.

Jeff intentionally made the Eldritch Bonuses strong, I don't see why people are now singling those out to try to revise and weaken. I hope that Jeff doesn't allow that to happen.

I am not in favor of weakening the abilities on the RoSP, I would rather see a change to Monk's Dragon Strike in 2016 instead of weakening the damage reduction portion of the RoSP.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Alvin Oliver wrote: Ok wow, guess a fireball with this ring only gets +5 damage to one creature....

Relsa’s Ring of Supreme Focus

Damage-dealing spells cast by the wearer deal +5 Damage. Healing spells cast by the wearer heal +5 HP. It has no effect on spells emanating from items, scrolls, or spells cast by the wearer which neither reduce nor restore HP.

If a spell under the influence of Relsa’s Ring of Supreme Focus can affect more than one target, the caster gets a total of 5 extra points of healing/damage from the ring, not +5 points per target. The caster chooses the recipient(s) of the extra points and may allocate them as s/he sees fit among the eligible recipients.

*blinks*

What?

Is this new or was I completely blind when I looked?

*mumbles* Crap, there go ALL of my calculations... *grumble*

Not new. But it just doesn't come up that often since most rooms have only a single monster and each wizard only has a couple multi-target spells on their card.

Alvin Oliver wrote: Yes but even if it stacked with a Monk's 5th level ability, then it would take away the unique power that defines the Monk as a class. That is like the Rod giving everyone the ability to Cast a Magic Missile but the wizard would get a second one.

The portion of the RoSP isn't useless as a monk it just makes one of our class defining abilities useless.

Kind of like the:

- Bowl of Spirit Sight
- Gloves of Deflection
- Ring of Feather Fall / Cloak of Gliding / Cloak of the Bat
- Figurine of Power: Panther
- Lamps of the Marid & Efreeti
- +2 Assassin's Crossbow
- Horn of Blasting
- Medallion of Greyhawk
- Ring of Evasion / Ring of Improved Evasion / Khing's Supreme Ring of Evasion

Alvin Oliver wrote:

Incognito wrote:

Alvin Oliver wrote: The bolded statement above would be a copy of the Monk's 5th level ability. As it is now the RoSP pretty much tramples that ability, so if it is going to be changed please have it not step on a current character ability, as we have already bit hit this year hard by the rules due the no weapon swap from bracers or set items rules.

If that were to be the change, it would be simple enough to add a clause (stacks with the 5th level Monk to ignore the first -20 damage reduction).

Yes, that portion of the RoSP ability is currently useless to monks.

Yes but even if it stacked with a Monk's 5th level ability, then it would take away the unique power that defines the Monk as a class. That is like the Rod giving everyone the ability to Cast a Magic Missile but the wizard would get a second one.

The portion of the RoSP isn't useless as a monk it just makes one of our class defining abilities useless.

The main difference being that it is a lot easier to get a 5th Level Monk than to get two Eldritch Items. So, there will probably be a lot of people that get to take advantage of the 5th Level Monk ability that don't have the option of two Eldritch Items. So it's not a complete overlap, although I do understand what you're saying.

Mike Steele wrote: First - those two item bonuses have been defined for years, and should stay in place as is.

Well, apparently that logic doesn't really work well with True Dungeon.

The HoP reprint policy was well defined and maintained for many years. Until one day when it wasn't.

The "swappable slots" rule was allowed for years. And then suddenly it wasn't.

Even the "Monk can't attack with the Orb of Might" was well-defined for years. Until it wasn't.

Jeff intentionally made the Eldritch Bonuses strong, I don't see why people are now singling those out to try to revise and weaken. I hope that Jeff doesn't allow that to happen.

Well, I certainly did not set this whole issue in motion (though I wonder who was convincing enough to do so). And I am not specifically singling out the Eldritch set. If anything, I think this particular problem is caused more by the Lenses of Divine Sight rather than the Eldritch set (which had its powers defined before the LoDS was even around).