TOPIC: Horn of Plenty and other such OOP tokens

CrowOfPyke wrote:

Rex Hood Jr. wrote: Crow I think if you burn 4-5 slots just to mimic a hop you are hurting someone. .. your party. On nightmare or hardcore 4-5 slots would be devastating just so you could get a slight personal advs advantage.

The idea was posited without consideration for difficulty settings on the runs. I haven't seen players take the selfish bent in Nightmare or Hardcore mode. Why? Because those runs tend to be highly organized. That said, I know from experience that just two players with just a few purple UR tokens can carry a whole team in a Hardcore run without a lot of "token input" from other team members - so I know those runs wouldn't be harmed by this kind of "treasure whore" build.

Nightmare is a different story. I am not saying it couldn't happen, but I doubt it will since Nightmare teams and Nightmare runs tend to be highly orchestrated events.

If people really want HOP equivalency and treasure pulls really make their day, then playing on Normal difficulty is a way to do that will no harm to anyone. Some people get there fun hoarding XP, some get it from costumes and RP, and some get their fun amassing treasure pulls - nothing wrong with that. And with the suggestion I made, token farming is still pricey enough so that it doesn't destabilize the token economy.

I am just tossing out an idea as a possible compromise that will make both sides willing to back away from the ledge. I'd rather not see the game devolve into bitterness over haves and have-nots, thus the suggestion.

It is an interesting concept. I would wonder what rarity you would suggest these 4-5 tokens be? If they were UR I would not like it because I don't want to see that many tokens take up slots in what always seems to be a crowded field. Plus getting 1 as a random UR if they only do something if you have the other 3-4 would suck. If they were any level lower it would be really easy to acquire them. I think that is bad but haven't thought too much about it. Again interesting concept I think it would need some flushing out though to see if it would work.

You kind of have that now. RoR + CoGF is almost as good as a HoP - maybe better since the 5 extra loots (7 if everyone in the party has them) are guaranteed versus the 6 that aren't. And it only took up two slots! I wonder if they were intended as a way to do a functional reprint of HoP at a cheaper price for newer players.

The problem is they stack with HoP, so it didn't make people happy in the long run. And there's a real danger that any of the suggestions made in this thread will end up the same way. They'll just raise the bar so that people are upset they "only" get 16 or 20 or 125 loots instead of the 6 extra a HoP owner "unfairly" enjoys.

Raven has her elite XP status because she hasn't missed earning a point since day one. Once you've played as many years and adventures as she has, you'll catch her. In that sense, it's a very fair system. Providing a shortcut, in the name of fairness, is decidedly UNfair to those who didn't get it.

It's pointless for me to complain that I'll never catch her until she quits (heaven forbid) - almost as pointless as complaining that my mother-in-law got to retire last year and I didn't, just because she was born a decade or two before I was. If I were competing against other people, I'd be doing something very wrong. I'd be surrendering to envy.

My car is 12 years old. A young woman at work is getting a new BMW from her rich parents. It's pointless to be upset at how unfair it is that she get a new car, that she doesn't deserve it or I deserve it more, or at how BMW charges too much money, or anything else. If I want one bad enough, I should save up for it. If I don't, I'll have to make do with something else.

But some, not all, of those complaining about the inherent unfairness of the token economy seems to be envy talking.

Finally, if 16 loots per run aren't enough, what is? What should be the maximum (not counting level bonuses)? Pick a number, but remember most players get 3, if they're lucky. If you add any more, there has to be a serious drawback, like "no completion tokens," or "draw all your loot and sacrifice the best draw" or "you get no XP at all this year" or something. Or just put a limit, like only 3 loot-draw tokens may be equipped, or no more than X treasure chips may be earned per adventure. Because (see my previous rant).

Brad Mortensen wrote: You kind of have that now. RoR + CoGF is almost as good as a HoP - maybe better since the 5 extra loots (7 if everyone in the party has them) are guaranteed versus the 6 that aren't. And it only took up two slots! I wonder if they were intended as a way to do a functional reprint of HoP at a cheaper price for newer players.

The problem is they stack with HoP, so it didn't make people happy in the long run. And there's a real danger that any of the suggestions made in this thread will end up the same way. They'll just raise the bar so that people are upset they "only" get 16 or 20 or 125 loots instead of the 6 extra a HoP owner "unfairly" enjoys.

Raven has her elite XP status because she hasn't missed earning a point since day one. Once you've played as many years and adventures as she has, you'll catch her. In that sense, it's a very fair system. Providing a shortcut, in the name of fairness, is decidedly UNfair to those who didn't get it.

It's pointless for me to complain that I'll never catch her until she quits (heaven forbid) - almost as pointless as complaining that my mother-in-law got to retire last year and I didn't, just because she was born a decade or two before I was. If I were competing against other people, I'd be doing something very wrong. I'd be surrendering to envy.

My car is 12 years old. A young woman at work is getting a new BMW from her rich parents. It's pointless to be upset at how unfair it is that she get a new car, that she doesn't deserve it or I deserve it more, or at how BMW charges too much money, or anything else. If I want one bad enough, I should save up for it. If I don't, I'll have to make do with something else.

But some, not all, of those complaining about the inherent unfairness of the token economy seems to be envy talking.

Finally, if 16 loots per run aren't enough, what is? What should be the maximum (not counting level bonuses)? Pick a number, but remember most players get 3, if they're lucky. If you add any more, there has to be a serious drawback, like "no completion tokens," or "draw all your loot and sacrifice the best draw" or "you get no XP at all this year" or something. Or just put a limit, like only 3 loot-draw tokens may be equipped, or no more than X treasure chips may be earned per adventure. Because (see my previous rant).

But Brad, why should there have to be a disadvantage if an additional token is introduced that gives bonus treasure coins? How is that any different than the fact that established players can get significantly more bonuses on "to hit" and "damage", largely due to out-of-print tokens. Does that mean that no more tokens should be created that give additional combat bonuses because it will increase the gap between the haves and have-nots? If Jeff decides he's willing to bear the cost of the extra treasure token draws by introducing another token that gives bonus token draws, I don't see that as any different than new tokens that increase other gaps between new and old players (combat bonuses, hit points, AC, etc).

Because loot is a material reward, exchangeable for cash. When you can make a profit by playing, greed will crowd out the people who want to play for fun. Loot tokens affect the game as a whole and everyone who plays. Inflation in token draws, if unchecked, will end in collapse of the token economy. And that will take down TD.

Tokens that only affect game play don't extend beyond the room. If we were talking about +10 vorpal swords I'd have nothing to say. Add one more slot of loot drawing and I do.

I used to run a game server. I listened to players who wanted everything to be easier. It died because everyone could run around in UR armor and wield powerful weapons. Without challenge and a reason to strive, there was no reason to play anymore.

A lot of these discussions remind me of that experience, and I'd hate to see the same mistakes repeated here.

Brad Mortensen wrote: Because loot is a material reward, exchangeable for cash. When you can make a profit by playing, greed will crowd out the people who want to play for fun. Loot tokens affect the game as a whole and everyone who plays. Inflation in token draws, if unchecked, will end in collapse of the token economy. And that will take down TD.

Tokens that only affect game play don't extend beyond the room. If we were talking about +10 vorpal swords I'd have nothing to say. Add one more slot of loot drawing and I do.

I used to run a game server. I listened to players who wanted everything to be easier. It died because everyone could run around in UR armor and wield powerful weapons. Without challenge and a reason to strive, there was no reason to play anymore.

A lot of these discussions remind me of that experience, and I'd hate to see the same mistakes repeated here.

Brad, I'm not sure your Doomsday scenario would really take place if another token-drawing token or two were added - especially if one was always available for a PYP choice in a given year. Adding a few more token draws, which will 99% of the time be a rare, uncommon, or monster ingredient token, will not result in everyone running around in Relic/Legendary armor and unstoppable weapons. Token purchases with their PYP choices increases the amount of UR and higher tokens in circulation far more than token draws do. And even if it becomes possible to turn a profit by doing True Dungeon runs and selling the tokens you draw, there are probably not that many people that will load up on runs just for profit potential, because they will probably have less enjoyment during the run and it will take time away from other more enjoyable things they can do. And even for those people, they will likely be taking up just a small fraction of the total number of runs (over 8,000 this year) available. I enjoy tokens about as much as anyone I know, but I'm not going to increase the number of runs I do in order to get more token draws. The number of runs I do is strictly based on how many cool runs I can get in with my group of friends and still leave time for other stuff.

Regarding the increased power levels, that is clearly going to happen regardless of how many token pulls people get, because tokens in general are getting more powerful each year, with new slots frequently added. And it is also clear that True Dungeon's answer to that is to increase the difficulty level correspondingly so that the level of challenge doesn't diminish too much. I think every year Jeff is aiming for the sweet spot of difficulty so that sufficient challenge is provided without being too difficult.

And you could argue that getting additional token pulls increases peoples enjoyment of the game, which actually makes the game stronger and increases the player retention from year to year. People are probably more included to keep playing if they are getting 15 token pulls per run rather than 3 token pulls per run.

...and people who buy large token orders have a harder time selling their extras, so they buy less. I'm thinking of cutting my token order by 25% next year. The more people get for free, the less they buy. The less the big buyers buy. The less money coming in to True Adventures. The worse the props and/or higher the ticket prices.

There is a law of Unintended Consequences in economics. You can't dump tons of free tokens into an economy, especially one as relatively small as TD's, without something else changing.

Like I said - a few years ago: no HoP, 3 loot max. Then came HoP, and it went to 9. People who couldnt afford a HoP got the RoR - now it's 12. Last year we got CoGF, and it's 16, and people are still not satisfied. There is a point where it's too much. What's that point? I don't know, but every two years we get close to the edge of the cliff.

Let's say it got to the point you could get 100 treasure per run. At that point, forget the farmers; nobody buys reds or below anymore on the secondary market. Why would they? It's much cheaper to buy a ticket than six 10-packs, and you get twice the tokens, and none of them commons. At that point, I stop preordering any tokens whatsoever, and many others do as well. That would be bad. Unintended Consequences.

We're at 16 now. 100 is clearly catastrophe. Somewhere in between is the tipping point. Every extra draw gets us closer to it. In my opinion, it's closer than you think. You feel it's farther out than I fear. We'll never know for sure until we cross it, and then it will be too late.

But I'm one guy. What do other onyx buyers think? If the max draws went to 100, would that affect your order? By how much (in percentage)? If you think I'm crazy you're welcome to say so.

I've only been playing for a few years and am really new to token collecting, but I have to say that Brad makes very good points. I have quickly become intrigued by the TD token economy (I have a big interest in economics, including a Master's degree). It will be important for Jeff to keep the economy growing in a stable manner, which means it is best not to inject too many valuable tokens...

But does the average experience level of players keep going up? If so, commons are bound to become more and more useless anyways...

Brad, I understand your concerns, but I don't think the facts back them up. Clearly the Charm of Good Fortune significantly boosted the average number of token draws people can get. Following your hypothesis, that should have led to a decrease in token sales and revenue for True Dungeon. However, by all accounts the amount of tokens sold has continued to go up every year, so it hasn't had that effect at all.

At this point the big token buyers are mainly buying tokens for the Ultra-Rares, Rod Segments, Wish Rings, Onyx Sets, Adventurer's Guild Buttons, etc. The Rares and Uncommons they get (which is primarily what they would get from the treasure boxes other than monster ingredient tokens) are largely getting cashed in for trade item tokens and reserve tokens.

You may have a point that if people could get 100 token pulls per run that would be problematic (especially since it would include a PYP or other special token per run), but we're FAR from that point. If you figure an average of four extra draws per Token that generates extra draws, it would take another 21 tokens like the RoR or CoGF to get to 100 per run. I don't think anyone was advocating that, and even if a new token like that were introduced every - say - 4 years, someone would have to play another 84 years to get all of those.

Jeff has all the data on how much the tokens cost him, how token sales are doing from year to year, etc. I'm sure that if he introduces another token that allows you to get extra treasure coins, he has looked at the data and decided that it's in the best interests of True Dungeon.

My point with 100 was that there is a breaking point somewhere between where we are and there. I was just trying to get people to concede that point exists with an extreme example. Now that you do, the debate is where that point is. And if we don't have a good idea of where it breaks, we should proceed with caution because there is no backtracking.

TD is a very cyclical economy. There is basically one datapoint per year. We won't know we went over the cliff until two years after the fact.

Btw, TD token sales may be up this year. Mine are down. Why? My fault? CoGF? More people pushing AG orders? Who knows. But next year I'll buy a lot less. I certainly won't buy more. Maybe I'm the only one that happened to, and maybe others will pick up my slack. Maybe Gamingetc is doing better. But I'm sure it's not enough to break anything on its own.

That's why I'm guessing there is about a two-year lag between an action and seeing the ramifications of it. At one weekend a year, it takes awhile to see where the ripples go.

Just please don't think we can keep adding more and more cheap ways to draw tokens without there being consequences. TD doesn't have the option to tweak. It can easy add tokens, but it can't take them away again. Propose errata to the HoP and see what happens - I dare you

I think that the creation of trade items, and later relics and legendary tokens, alleviated much of the “un-needed” R-UC-C tokens for the bigger buyers.

Also, I have seen over the last 2-3 years more complex characters. One example would be our Paladin. This year we moved him to a two-handed weapon due to the number of damage buff tokens available for two-handed weapons. As purple as the Paladin is, we are still using a common token due to this complex configuration.

Donald Rients wrote: I think that the creation of trade items, and later relics and legendary tokens, alleviated much of the “un-needed” R-UC-C tokens for the bigger buyers.

Also, I have seen over the last 2-3 years more complex characters. One example would be our Paladin. This year we moved him to a two-handed weapon due to the number of damage buff tokens available for two-handed weapons. As purple as the Paladin is, we are still using a common token due to this complex configuration.

I think you are correct and there are a lot more viable builds out there now. Yes, there are always the Best In Slot builds but more and more you can build an effective character without BIS equipment.