TOPIC: How to improve 2 handed weapons?

JJsylph30 wrote: am I correct in assuming that the little hand/claw markers @ the bottom of weapon & shield tokens determine the # of hands they occupy?

Yes
1 black & 1 white = one-hander
2 black = two-hander

archmage78 wrote: At the end of the day simply make the new batch of two handed weapons have a one point damage increase the wheel. Yes it makes them better then previous two handed weapons but this doesn't add more rules, more math for the coaches and more bureaucracy to annoy players. The game has moved in that direction, one handed weapons are simply better, it doesn't unbalance the game if two handed weapons simply do what the one handers are doing, getting better.

Doesn't even equal a 1 handed weapon (dwarven dire axe) + orb of might. 2 points maybe, but 1 pt is not enough.

Bumping the power levels up is power creep, which is not a good thing. Uncommons from today equal Rares from yesterday, and Rares from today obsolete older UR's as the become as powerful or more powerful than Rares. For a game that is only played a few hours one time a year, having Ur's go obsolete on a periodic basis isn't desirable.

That is my opinion at least, I understand others may feel differently.

Mike,

Although I agree with you, my point is they (2-handed weapons) are already obsolete due to primarily the Dwarven Dire Axe and Dread Sword.

Ideally, as Incognito said, the best fix would be to change the Fighters and Barbarian (and Paladin?) cards to give all 2-handed weapons an edge.

That would have the virtue of keeping all existing 2-handed weapons viable.

Power creep is not a valid argument as there as already been power creep for other weapons, but not two handed weapons. This would just even it out.

Increasing the damage by 1 or 2 pts is not enough. The ranger does an extra 4 points of damage using bows.

Why not do the same thing for the classes that can use two handed weapons?

eldrad12000 wrote: Power creep is not a valid argument as there as already been power creep for other weapons, but not two handed weapons. This would just even it out.

Increasing the damage by 1 or 2 pts is not enough. The ranger does an extra 4 points of damage using bows.

Why not do the same thing for the classes that can use two handed weapons?

There has definitely been power creep for two-handed weapons. The +2 Holy Greatsword is better than the +2 Great Axe, at least for the Paladin.

Power creep has been happening - but I think that once you have recognized and acknowledged it (which most everyone has) you first really need to make a fundamental choice.
1) Do you accept continued power creep as a fact of life and see older URs gradually lose value?

2) Do you admit that some fundamental obsolescence and value loss happened as part of the growth of TD, but now you want to get the playing field re-leveled and put a definite cap on the potential for future creep.

I'd vote #2 - and with that some adjustment needs to happen in general to the 2 handed weapons that are forthcoming. Not sure you can really fix anything that has already suffered a loss due to creep, but that should go into the "lessons learned" file to prevent similar discrepancies in the future.

Also - just my personal feeling - trying to backtrack and "fix" a weapon that has suffered the effects of creep - would cause more headache than it would likely fix.

My 2 cents - for what it is worth.

Figured I'd post up some hard data for everyone to work with. Here are all the +1 two handed weapons.

+1 Quarter Staff (2003-2006, 2011)
2-3-4-5-6-7 (4.5 avg)
Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, Dwarf Fighter, Elf Wizard, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Wizard

+1 Great Axe (2003-2007)
2-2-3-3-6-7-7-10-11-11 (6.2 avg)
Barbarian, Dwarf Fighter, Fighter, Paladin

+1 Great Sword (2003-2007)
2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11 (6.5 avg)
Barbarian, Dwarf Fighter, Fighter, Paladin

+1 Great Club (2008)
2-3-3-4-4-9-9-10-10-11 (6.5 avg)
Barbarian, Dwarf Fighter, Fighter, Paladin

+1 Darkwood Staff (2009)
2-3-4-4-5-9 (4.5 avg)
Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, Dwarf Fighter, Elf Wizard, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Wizard

+1 Halberd (2009)
2-2-3-3-6-6-10-10-11-11 (6.4 avg)
Dwarf Fighter, Fighter, Monk

+1 Iron Long Spear (2009)
2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9 (4.4 avg, +3 vs Fey)
Barbarian, Druid, Dwarf Fighter, Fighter, Monk, Paladin

+1 Elven Falchion (2010)
2-2-3-4-7-8-11-11 (6 avg, +3 vs Orcs)
Barbarian, Dwarf Fighter, Fighter, Paladin

+1 Maul (2010)
2-3-3-4-6-9-11-11 (6.125 avg)
Barbarian, Dwarf Fighter, Fighter, Paladin

+1 Dwarven Glaive (2012)
2-2-3-3-5-6-10-10-11-11 (6.3 avg, +3 vs Giants)
Barbarian, Dwarf Fighter, Fighter, Monk, Paladin

So, looking at the above, the following conclusions can be drawn:

• If a caster can use it, expect a drop in Average damage of about 2 points.
• There has been virtually no power creep in damage of 2H Weapons since 2003

The damage levels of +2 weapons are 1 point of avg damage higher than their +1 versions (so for Bar/Fig/Pal weapons, around the 7-7.5 range).
The weapon in the highest available average damage is the +2 Heavy Trident of Skewering, at 8.5; which is a full point higher than the next closest weapons.

There has, however, been significant power creep in the 1H weapon space. Fighters, Barbarians and Paladins currently have access to a weapon or two that deal 2H levels of damage... add in the effect of being able to Off-Hand the Orb of Might with these weapons and 2H weapons look a far cry from desirable to the classes that are designed to use them.

Suggested Fix:
I'm with Grekel! on this, and his suggested option 2 is the route I would go. For weapon tokens printed for 2013 and on:
For 2H weapons usable by only by Barbarian, Dwarf Fighter, Fighter, Paladin: Raise the Avg damage 2-2.5 points.

For 2H weapons usable additionally by Monks: Raise the Avg damage by 1-1.5 points. (The reason for this is to be careful about not out classing Bracer Weapons)

For 2H weapons usable by casters: Raise the Avg damage .5 - 1 point.