TOPIC: Great New Online Token Database!

To me, the rules were already crystal clear.

Silly question, but in light of these queries on clarification, does ammo count as a weapon? It's definitely not a Runestone Fitting Base. Or does ammo get a pass on the "one-item-of-same-name" equipping issue?

My common sense says that ammo and common gear, while not technically classified as a weapon or Runestone Fitting Base, should be allowed to have multiple same-name tokens equipped.

Quiver of Anointment should probably have the Max 1/person value as well.

Hawk Fingle wrote: Silly question, but in light of these queries on clarification, does ammo count as a weapon? It's definitely not a Runestone Fitting Base. Or does ammo get a pass on the "one-item-of-same-name" equipping issue?

My common sense says that ammo and common gear, while not technically classified as a weapon or Runestone Fitting Base, should be allowed to have multiple same-name tokens equipped.

Quiver of Anointment should probably have the Max 1/person value as well.

You guys are making this too complicated.
Here's the easy way to remember.

If a token can be used up (has charges marked off like a wand, or is turned in when you use it like a potion), you can take and use as many as you like. (Runestobes are normally limited to one per weapon.)

And, weapons. Monks and Rangers may dual-world two weapons with the same name, and you may take multiple copies of thrown weapons, and you may take spares in case one gets eaten by rust monster. That obviously doesn't give you any extra attacks.

Otherwise, you can only take one, even if it has some limitation like once per room/combat/game.

Ammo isn't a weapon; it's what weapons fire.

Hawk Fingle wrote: does ammo count as a weapon?

no

Hawk Fingle wrote: Quiver of Anointment should probably have the Max 1/person value as well.

For the sake of those who would be inclined to spend the entire combat greasing up weapon after weapon, Quiver of Anointment has been added to Max 1/person list.

Brad Mortensen wrote:
You guys are making this too complicated.
Here's the easy way to remember.

..

We're trying to understand the rules.

If the situation seems complicated to you, it's because of either inherent complexity in the underlying rules, or perhaps it's the case that the rules are indeed simple, but are phrased in an ambiguous or confusing manner that undercuts their simplicity.

The scheme you proposed above would mean it is illegal to take multiple copies of gear (Marking Chalk, 10 foot pole, Polymetric Decoy), and GP tokens of the same name into the dungeon. It's not clear to me that this is in fact the case. As gear and tokens are occasionally used to solve dungeon puzzles or interact with NPCs, this question has some actual impact on gameplay.

I suspect the design intent of the rules is something like:

Players may use only one copy of a token unless it falls into one of the categories below:

• Players may use multiple copies of consumable tokens unless otherwise stated by the token.
• Players may use multiple copies of weapons.
• Players may use multiple copies of any token with no printed in game effect (gear, trophies, Special?, Rumors, Artisan Tokens, Trade goods etc., etc.)

However if that is actually the rule, as opposed to the intent of the rule, I can't find it written down in the DMG, Coaches Guide, or Players guide.

Druegar wrote:

Hawk Fingle wrote: Quiver of Anointment should probably have the Max 1/person value as well.

For the sake of those who would be inclined to spend the entire combat greasing up weapon after weapon, Quiver of Anointment has been added to Max 1/person list.

Well, I guess that would be a "quiverful" approach....

Eum

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:
You guys are making this too complicated.
Here's the easy way to remember.

..

We're trying to understand the rules.

(Stuff deleted)

However if that is actually the rule, as opposed to the intent of the rule, I can't find it written down in the DMG, Coaches Guide, or Players guide.

My "scheme" is just a paraphrase of the existing rules.

The point of the "only take one" rule is to stop people from abusing tokens that are intended to only be used once per game but not yet given a dedicated slot. Like pouches, or the Lamps that started this whole discussion. But, Player Guide page 22 already explains it. All equipment, with some listed exceptions, is worn. And you can only wear one copy of a token. Gear and weapons and consumables are held, not worn. so all this quibbling has already been addressed.

I can understand questions about specific tokens, like "are Lamps worn/equipped?" (Answer: "yes"). I don't see a need for a massive rewrite of rules that are already clear and unambiguous once that simple question has been answered. And I feel bad that Druegar spent his time adding another field to the TokenDB. I'm sure he has better things to do.

Btw, the "only one copy" rule is in the Token Guide (page 10 of the 2013 version).

EDIT: To answer questions you didn't ask, but which follow from the rules as written:

You MAY carry extra weapons, potions, scrolls, arrows, chalk, etc and lend them to people in the dungeon and pass them around amongst the party willy-nilly.

You may NOT hand your Alchemist Pouch, Death Die, Lamp, armor, or any other WORN token to someone else to use in the dungeon. All must be equipped in the coaching room, at which point they are locked in place on that character for the entire adventure.

Brad Mortensen wrote: The point of the "only take one" rule is to stop people from abusing tokens that are intended to only be used once per game but not yet given a dedicated slot. Like pouches, or the Lamps that started this whole discussion. But, Player Guide page 22 already explains it. All equipment, with some listed exceptions, is worn. And you can only wear one copy of a token. Gear and weapons and consumables are held, not worn. so all this quibbling has already been addressed.

Thanks for the citation to the rules, that is helpful!

At the risk of seeming argumentative, let me state at the outset that I'm not
disputing what you are saying the correct interpretation of the rules are, nor am I disputing the reasonably clear intent of the rules as you have paraphrased them.

I'm deliberately pushing on the edge cases to try to understand if there is a gap in the rules, or a gap in my knowledge of them. In this vein I'm not really interested in common sense, rules of thumb, or what would be of practical benefit to players to actually do, I'm interested in the black letter rules. I find exploring the space and interaction of rules to be enjoyable, so I'm playing devil's advocate quite a bit.

If you find that kind of thing tedious, you should probably stop reading now.

With Brad's help are the relevant passages from the rules:

2013 Token Guide Page 13 says:

"Equipping your character with identical items (i.e. two identical things) is not allowed."

Dungeon Master's Guide Page 15 says:

"Note: Other than weapons and runestone fitting bases, no character may equip more than one item of the same name - no matter what rarity the items are."

Players Guide Page 22 says:

"...there are restrictions on the numbers of items that can be "in play" at any one time. Other than weapons, shields, wands, and items held in (not worn on) the hand, all items must be worn for the entire adventure. Therefore, all other "worn" equipment including armor, rings, gloves, ioun stones, charms, etc. may not be swapped once the adventure begins."
(This phrasing is repeated in the Dungeon Master's Guide page 44.)

Dungeon Master's Guide Page 44 says:

"When consuming multiple quantities of a specific food/herb/potion... Example 1: If a character eats three ORCISH RATIONS..."

So - what do we have:

1. "Equipped" items must be unique, unless they be weapons or runestones fitting bases.
2. Since we can bring multiple copies of the same consumable, it follows that these are not "Equipped."
3. Let's assume "worn" on DMG p. 22 and "equipped" elsewhere are synonyms, and doing some interpolation, we arrive at: "weapons, shields, wands, and items held in (not worn on) the hand" are the only things that are not worn/equipped, and therefore the only things that a player can benefit from the use of multiple copies of.

However - if 'held in the hand' is to be our guide as to what tokens can be be multiply equipped aside from weapons, wands, and shields, we immediately get back into confusion - as there is no reliable way to discern between what slotless items are "held in the hand" and what ones are not - unfortunately hand icons on the item don't tell us this (gear, consumables).


So... are all consumables items "held in the hand"? Evidently yes - because you can have multiples.

It seems we've just rephrased the question: "How am I to tell what items I can benefit multiple copies of?" to "How am I to tell what slotless items are 'held in the hand' and not worn?"

You've said gear falls under the 'held in the hand' category. Great - I agree.

However prior to the rulings yesterday, how is one to discern that Pouch of Tulz, Bowl of Spirit Sight, Lamp of the Maird, etc. are not also in the "held in the hand" category?

When a new slotless token is printed, as happens every year, how are we to determine if it is in the "held in the hand" category?

I can see nothing in the rules (prior to yesterday's ruling) that would differentiate Pouch of Tulz from Marking Chalk in this regard.

I don't think fixing this requires a massive rewrite of the rules, I think it can be done quite simply:

1. Remove the "held in the hand" wording as there is no criteria to determine what is "held in the hand" (notably - it doesn't seem to mean things with the hands symbol only).

2. Explicitly list what tokens can be used multiple times, I would propose:

A. Anything with hand symbols
B. Consumables
C. Slotless tokens with no set game effect/rules text
D. Any token that says so (currently only Runestone Fitting Base)

... and that's why I said you're making it too complicated.
This whole thread could be reduced to seven words under the existing rules.

"Are Lamps 'worn' or 'held?"
"Worn."
"Thanks."

EDIT: And while arguing alleged ambiguities may be fun for you, in this case it turned into hours of work for Druegar as he updated the TokenDB. So I don't think it fair to make work for him as an intellectual exercise that doesn't really add any value to the game for the majority of players.

And, while you don't care about "common sense," I'd like to point out the TD rules already run into hundreds of pages. Driving out every molecule of doubt will turn it into thousands of pages, which no one will read anyway (because they don't even read what exists now), and there will ALWAYS be gaps. The federal tax code outweighs many small cars and is still full of loopholes.

At the end of the day, this is a game.

I think it's fine to think about these things. But... it should probably have its own thread.

And I think the distinction is items without any game effect or affect are held, along with consumables.

Weapons and runestones are already called out as being exceptions for allowing multiples for worn items. No need to belabor that.

Lode

Lodestone (KH) wrote: it should probably have its own thread.

agreed