TOPIC: Traders Guild discussion: Trade poaching

Rafiq wrote: My two cents:

"Poaching" is frowned upon. It should be an unwritten rule like running into a teams goalie in hockey. I don't think it needs to be set in stone because it should be fairly obvious that this kind of behavior is not tolerated.

"Responsibility" belongs to both traders, experienced or unexperienced. While I was trading I always made the offer of "if you feel uncomfortable about doing a trade never feel bad about getting up and walking away." I had one person who bought an item from me and came back 20 minutes later because they found that they already had one in their bag but couldn't find it. I refunded them right away. Players will get burned from unscrupulous traders. It is unavoidable. They will also learn that there are reliable and trustworthy traders out there and they are the ones they will continue to go to in the future. Rapport with your clientele is worth more than making a quick profit.

I like Raven's idea about the posse, but could I suggest Pressman's Clubs? I seem to be overstocked on those. Lol

Smak, I will buy you a beer anytime. If you see me just shout "Beer!" and I will get you one in the bar. (In Japan we can drink them in public. I know! Awesome!"

Rafiq

we dont need a posse..you have me..I will just be the Enforcer...by gencon 2012..i will be even bigger a leaner. I am down 130lbs and packing on muscle..

Lazlo,

I just hit the gym after my one month hiatus to Canada and the US. I'll be pumped and ready to go by next Gencon. Pressman clubs optional.

Rafiq

Personally, I don't get the whole no poaching thing. I would think you would want it to be a free market. That means everyone has the chance to get the best deals rather than having quasi price fixing by a cabal. That's what a 'no poaching' rule ends up being. Basically a no-compete clause.

I kind of agree with Henwy. Also, if this guild is meeting and doing price fixing- who is to say it won't be skewed either high or low. If a consortium is involved in trading it will affect pricing.
In the same breath, anyone who trades should have the Golden Rule in mind (not the one that says I need to get your gold).
This is like any free market economy and I trade a lot like Laz and SMak at times. I often randomly send Rares and other needs to players because they need them and have nothing I want ( I did it 4 times this year before the Con and doled out some items at the Con to people desperately trying to make combos and being offered insane prices for otherwise junk items).

I think Smakdown, Lazlo, and myself may have to form a blackmarket trading guild.

henwy wrote: Personally, I don't get the whole no poaching thing. I would think you would want it to be a free market. That means everyone has the chance to get the best deals rather than having quasi price fixing by a cabal. That's what a 'no poaching' rule ends up being. Basically a no-compete clause.

Henwy has a valid point. So the real question becomes... "how to promote and encourage good behavior without killing the free market atmosphere?"

I think Raven already said that we more or less need to speak up if someone is being obnoxious and remind them that such behavior is really not appropriate - but if they choose to behave like jerks - within the bounds of the convention and TD we really can't go much further until someone does something against the convention's rules.

I would say we should have a basic concept that guild members should firmly but POLITELY intervene if there is someone behaving badly - and ask them to "play nice". If, however they still want to be jerks - we do live in a free country - they get to choose to behave like jerks.

Far more important, I think, would be that we as Guild members agree to some basic conduct guidlines and set a good, positive example by treating everyone else and each other with courtesy and respect. If nothing else - customers quickly figure out who the jerks are and who is there to give them a good fair deal. Good behavior actually is rewarded - it just sometimes takes patience!

EN 429 wrote: I kind of agree with Henwy. Also, if this guild is meeting and doing price fixing- who is to say it won't be skewed either high or low. If a consortium is involved in trading it will affect pricing.
In the same breath, anyone who trades should have the Golden Rule in mind (not the one that says I need to get your gold).
This is like any free market economy and I trade a lot like Laz and SMak at times. I often randomly send Rares and other needs to players because they need them and have nothing I want ( I did it 4 times this year before the Con and doled out some items at the Con to people desperately trying to make combos and being offered insane prices for otherwise junk items).

I think Smakdown, Lazlo, and myself may have to form a blackmarket trading guild.

I think that the Guild could benefit GREATLY from the likes of Smak, Lazlo and yourself. I also COMPLETELY agree with your sentiments about price fixing and think that most people here do as well (though I can only speak for myself). I think the guild as a "Group" dedicated to helping other TD players with their token collections and to promoting good fair trading in the spirit of FUN (which is what True Dungeon is really about) is a needed thing.

We must simply accept that ours would never be a policing or enforcing role - that belongs to Jeff and the GenCon staff.

But... a guild of players who focus on helping people get the tokens they need/want while obtaining a fair trade in return - this could really help a lot of people have a deeper enjoyment of the TD experience. I know it is very American to start writing a rulebook, and I know from personal experience - that it gets out of hand quickly. Everyone wants their own personal interests protected in writing if possible - but everyone tends to want very different things in the fine print. So - while it may be irritating to not have exactly what you want. I would think it far better to live with a few simple rules/guidelines and accept the fact that things will happen thet you do not like or agree with - and that this is OK.

Thoughts?

I think the whole "poaching" should really be along the lines of what goes on inside the GenCon Dealers hall when it comes to buying and selling any of the CCG's.

In that the booths don't go running over to another booth's and tell people they will pay more for their stuff. Instead, it is the seller's obligation to trek all over the convention floor seeking the best trade they can get.

The traders guild facilitates this by sitting in one general area.

To perhaps lower the risk of over-hearing other offers and reducing the risk of "throwing out a counter offer", instead of having all the traders lined up along one wall, spread them out over the area (assuming we have a tavern), but have them clearly marked so that a person who wishes to trade could walk in and see there are plenty of choices.

But, this is just 2CP from someone who will not be in the Guild, as I am not a big trader.

Grekel! wrote: Far more important, I think, would be that we as Guild members agree to some basic conduct guidlines and set a good, positive example by treating everyone else and each other with courtesy and respect. If nothing else - customers quickly figure out who the jerks are and who is there to give them a good fair deal. Good behavior actually is rewarded - it just sometimes takes patience!

^^
*THIS*

This is what a Token Traders Guild would be, in my mind.

I think that George's original charter captured it quite well. Since then, the discussion has wandered into several areas which, IMHO, do need discussion.. but I would rather not see any hard&fast rules.

Perhaps a statement such as "It is considered rude to interrupt a trade in the works. Poaching (taking a buyer away from another token seller so you can make the sale yourself instead) is bad manners, and earns you a poor reputation" might suffice?

Unfortunately, you can't prevent people from being rude (as Grekel pointed out). It's a free country, and people are free to make asses of themselves. The most you can do is provide a polite counter example, and trust that your good reputation will earn you more customers in the long run.

Henwy,

Poaching and price-fixing are two separate issues. I personally don't like the idea of a hard and fast price list. These are never accurate. Poaching, however, is something I cannot tolerate. If it happens again I will not hold my tongue like I did this year.

Raven,

I had Binia sit next to me and we ran a two shops in one. The first reason I did this is because I respect Binia as a fair trader and as an honest person. I would often ask her what she thought a token was worth so that I could adjust my prices accordingly. I did this not to optimize my profit but to make sure I was giving new/casual players a fair deal for their GP and items. I want to help foster this hobby, not hinder it. For me, the more people who play this little game of ours the greater the chance of it growing and of it being around in the years to come. That should be the goal of every player/trader whether in a guild or not in a guild.

Grekel,

Agreed.

Rafiq

The real question is, How does the trading get set up to maximize the experience for the guild trader and the dungeon player?

First of all the guild is a good idea. It sets up a centralized name, place and provides legitimacy to the guild trader and variety for the consumers. Not every guild trader is the same. It could be broken down into common/uncommon uncommon/rare and rare/ultrarare traders. This could help in dividing consumers into appropriate groups and maximizing customer service while maximizing profits for traders due to volume.

Set up a guild tally sheet on favorable or unfavorable customer responses to different guild traders. A number would have to be assigned to each trader in the guild. And I assume you would have to wear a guild pin with your number. But it helps keep things honest and prevents non guild traders from sullying your good name.

The guild also needs someone to help educate newbies. They need our help to become addicted to tokens and true dungeon. If there is no repeat business then we have not done our jobs.

Rafiq wrote: For me, the more people who play this little game of ours the greater the chance of it growing and of it being around in the years to come. That should be the goal of every player/trader whether in a guild or not in a guild.

This is my goal as well, and I hope/think it is the goal of most of the committed TD players. (In fact, I think what you did with Binia is awesome, and I am just a teeny bit jealous because I didn't get to hang out with her this con )

But I humbly disagree about it being the goal of every player.

Wherever there is the potential for profit, you are going to have some players who are just trying to make a quick buck. Whether that's people taking advantage of newbies, or individuals rudely poaching on a trade, or the unfortunate incident a few years back where some players were running ahead of their parties so they could grab the UR in a room... it is going to happen.

The best way to combat it, IMHO, is by educating the casual player, and providing a positive example to others. Most of the people on the forums here are already providing that positive example (I think). We're just trying to make sure we're on the same page, and that we agree - more or less - on what that example is.

Raven,

that why I said "should be" the goal instead of "is" the goal. I know not everyone is of like mind, but where I stand it is to make this game fun and enjoyable for everyone. Big spender or sealed pack runner.

If you want to hang with Binia and myself I'm sure we could find room for you (when you aren't busy on your multiple runs!)

Rafiq