TOPIC: Amulet of Wonder 2011???

Molda wrote: It really sucks for people to reach for great fantasy, just to be reminded that they are too poor to have as much fun as those more fortunate in the real world.

While I agree with your post in spirit, Molda - I disagree with this sentence above. Particularly the implication that *fun* is a purchasable commodity in TD.

It is possible to have a lot of fun, without any tokens whatsoever.

It is possible to survive the dungeon, with only the tokens in your starting pack.

It is possible, sometimes, to become so obsessed with tokens and with outfitting your character, that it actually *detracts* from fun, in the dungeon.

It is true that some Real Life purchases (such as Bina's cool sashes, or these awesome token holders from some guy whose name rhymes with "Golda" : ) can get you more organized, leaving you with more time to enjoy the Dungeon. But there are also less expensive solutions to the same problems.

Token *collecting* is, admittedly, more fun if you've got the cash to make the bigger purchases. But True Dungeon has put a significant amount of work into making the token collecting & transmuting games a non-essential aspect of TD.

To sum up: I respectfully disagree with the idea that some players are "too poor to have as much fun as" those with more tokens.
Fun is where you make it.
And TD gives everyone opportunities to make that fun!

Molda wrote: I agree with those who think that the AoW should be reprinted, along with all other tokens, from time to time.
For some, ultra rare tokens are no problem to acquire. But for the vast majority of players, they are hard to get or simply out of reach. They are not out of reach because of in game level or love of the game but because of real life financial conditions. In a game based on D&D, the in game fantasy aspects should be the deciding factor, not how deep one's pockets are in real life.
I understand that for TD to survive and expand, there must be a way for Jeff & Co. to rake in hefty sums, but all players, regardless of their real life situations, should have access to great play items. Otherwise, the fantasy aspect is watered down by mundane, money grubbing aspects. And for me personally, that is the worst part of TD. It really sucks for people to reach for great fantasy, just to be reminded that they are too poor to have as much fun as those more fortunate in the real world. After all this is supposed to be a fantasy game, not mean streets USA.

i agree but, to me TD is not about the URs it is the dungeon itself...there are people like myself that off URs for GPs..now you my not be able to get one every year, but if you save your Gps up, people could afford one every few years (if you are buying a few packs of tokens a year)..i done mean a few like 3-4..nor do I mean 2-3 hundred in the middle somewhere

The problem becomes when the typical $250 order comes with about a thousand or so gold and the best in slot items like HOP and AOW go up in price faster then the. As I recall there's a standing offer in the trade form looking for a HoP at $600 and no takers. No you don't need tokens to have fun, personally I like playing with reds, but its does break the fantasy a little to know there are some items that are considered best and the typical player just cant have them even if their willing to put down a months rent to get them. Be honest would any of you Hop owners actually part with yours for $800, a thousand, or whatever the going rate is?

Not reprinting stuff because it causes problems with the game is one thing but preventing reprints of items to maintain scarcity doesn't do much to help the growth of the game no matter how you shake it.

Paul wrote: The problem becomes when the typical $250 order comes with about a thousand or so gold and the best in slot items like HOP and AOW go up in price faster then the. As I recall there's a standing offer in the trade form looking for a HoP at $600 and no takers. No you don't need tokens to have fun, personally I like playing with reds, but its does break the fantasy a little to know there are some items that are considered best and the typical player just cant have them even if their willing to put down a months rent to get them. Be honest would any of you Hop owners actually part with yours for $800, a thousand, or whatever the going rate is?

Not reprinting stuff because it causes problems with the game is one thing but preventing reprints of items to maintain scarcity doesn't do much to help the growth of the game no matter how you shake it.

i said URs not HoP or AoW (the only way i will part with these is if I am getting out of TD) ..Widseth's Mystical Lute was a high value UR(that was class specific) with the new bard UR this year, its price has come down..while it is not exactly the same..it is close

I have stated it before, I disagree with UR/R/UC reprints. What are the definitions of a UR/R/UC? UC is twice as common as a R. If a R is reprinted then it is no longer an R, but an UC. I think basic items (Common) are fine since they are common and make up a large amount of the items that should be obtainable. Reprinting of higher end items diassociates the rarity of the item with its actual standing.

One way out is to say make a +1 Long Sword, so the next your you want about the same thin, make a +1 Stone Long Sword, etc. It be in actuallity be the same (maye slight wheel damage changes and specialities) in play item, but is different somehow.

I'll be honest. I invested $200.00 in a Amulet of Wonder and would rather not see its value drop from a reprint. Some of us justify our purchases based on future value and we should take it under careful consideration before we damage that justification with reprints. Part of the TD purchase game is making timely investments. A bad precedent is set if we base reprints on folks missing out on a two year purchase window.

Reprints should make sense. We reprinted the Crown of Might this year because it was a part of the Might set. That set has a future. We'll be able to make those set items into some sort of +1 level token down the road.

If the AoW were to be part of a future transmutable token. Then I would begrudgingly accept it for a reprint. As of right now, there are no future plans. So no need for a reprint.

sellout23 wrote: I'll be honest. I invested $200.00 in a Amulet of Wonder and would rather not see its value drop from a reprint. Some of us justify our purchases based on future value and we should take it under careful consideration before we damage that justification with reprints. Part of the TD purchase game is making timely investments. A bad precedent is set if we base reprints on folks missing out on a two year purchase window.

Reprints should make sense. We reprinted the Crown of Might this year because it was a part of the Might set. That set has a future. We'll be able to make those set items into some sort of +1 level token down the road.

If the AoW were to be part of a future transmutable token. Then I would begrudgingly accept it for a reprint. As of right now, there are no future plans. So no need for a reprint.

One thing to keep in mind is that True Dungeon has, from the very start, had a sizeable proportion of sets be reprints from past years. Jeff Martin even addressed the AoW directly last year, saying it (and all other tokens from the base set other than HoP) were candidates for reprinting. So, buying tokens at inflated prices on the secondary market does have an element of risk, because they could be reprinted.

That is just the UR/Rare/Uncommon/Common tokens. So far, I don't believe any Combo, Reward, or Dungeon only tokens have been reprinted. I'm not sure if something like "Medallion of Greyhawk" is a candidate for reprinting, or on a reserve list.

Personally, from what I've seen, once a token starts really escalating in value, that makes it a likely candidate for reprinting, because that probably means that a LOT of people are emailing Jeff asking for it to be reprinted. It happened recently with tokens like Gauntlets of Ogre Power, +1 Bastard Sword, +2 Cloak of Resistance, and Potion of Death's Door. I actually expect the AoW to be reprinted in the next few years, because of the number of people that have started playing since it came out that want to be able to use it.

Raven wrote:

Molda wrote: It really sucks for people to reach for great fantasy, just to be reminded that they are too poor to have as much fun as those more fortunate in the real world.

While I agree with your post in spirit, Molda - I disagree with this sentence above. Particularly the implication that *fun* is a purchasable commodity in TD.

It is possible to have a lot of fun, without any tokens whatsoever.

It is possible to survive the dungeon, with only the tokens in your starting pack.

It is possible, sometimes, to become so obsessed with tokens and with outfitting your character, that it actually *detracts* from fun, in the dungeon.

It is true that some Real Life purchases (such as Bina's cool sashes, or these awesome token holders from some guy whose name rhymes with "Golda" : ) can get you more organized, leaving you with more time to enjoy the Dungeon. But there are also less expensive solutions to the same problems.

Token *collecting* is, admittedly, more fun if you've got the cash to make the bigger purchases. But True Dungeon has put a significant amount of work into making the token collecting & transmuting games a non-essential aspect of TD.

To sum up: I respectfully disagree with the idea that some players are "too poor to have as much fun as" those with more tokens.
Fun is where you make it.
And TD gives everyone opportunities to make that fun!

Well said Raven.
Perhaps I was too blunt with my wording. I do apologize if I have caused any upset, that was certainly not my intention.
Also, please understand that I mean no offense to anyone who plays TD, collects the tokens, and especially not to Jeff & Company. I truly feel that TD is the greatest innovation to the best game ever invented. I am truly grateful for the game and my chance to participate in it.
And I am not confusing the token collecting side of things with playing the game. I have never been a collector and have no intention of becoming one. I have bought more tokens in the last 30 days (including an AoW) than I have since I became a part of the TD experience in '05. Not in an effort to collect, but in the hopes of increasing my ability to play the game more successfully.
I do whole-heartedly agree with your statement "Fun is where you make it."
But there are also degrees of fun. Fun can be found in a miniature golf game or an afternoon tossing a Frisbee. However, these do not compare with the fun derived from white water rafting with a 5 star rated waterfall or skydiving; these are in the great fun category. The same category that I place TD. I do feel that more people should have the ability to reach that higher level of enjoyment. That level where TD is the most enjoyable thing they experience all year.
The TD experience is definitely enhanced by the tokens you carry. While it is true that you can survive with just the starting pack, that is not always the case for most people, especially with the foes faced in the last few years. As a DM I have seen many people who's experiences were definitely deteriorated by insufficient tokens. And mere survival is not the point I was trying to make. Nor was the aspect of having a bit of fun. I was only trying to point out that having the ability to access and use great tokens does tend to bring a much higher degree of enjoyment to playing the game. And if access to these great tokens is restricted to the few, then the few have access to the greatest joy. I do admit that this is not always the case, but shouldn't we be concerned with the experiences of the majority? That way we encourage an ever-increasing fan base so that the future of TD is more secure.
But I'm getting off the track of what I had originally intended to say. While there is a lot to say for being one of those fortunate few that were around when certain great tokens appeared, and many worry about the value of what they already have, I personally think that newer players should have similar chances. While I don't profess to have the knowledge or wisdom to suggest how to make it fair to all, I just see the down side of the picture.

I wondered last year, who among us was having the most fun? Those of us who had the full array of tokens that countered all of the underwater effects, or those who didn't have all those tokens, and actually had to roleplay the effects, holding their breaths while attacking before returning to the air bubble, etc.

It really made me hope that future Dungeons could have some cool effects (environmental or otherwise) that everyone had to deal with, instead of those of us who are "token rich" being able to completely negate them by having the proper tokens. And it would help "even the playing field" if, for instance, everyone would drop their weapon if they slid outside the numbered outline, instead of just those without the proper tokens.

Maybe there could be a mix of some effects that can be mitigated by tokens (to help spur token sales) and some that everyone was vulnerable to?

Thanks for elaborating on your earlier comment, Molda, and I do agree with you, to a large extent.

The real thrill of True Dungeon is the *Dungeon*, not the tokens. If someone wants to go to the effort of tracking down/building/buying cool tokens in order to get the most out of their Dungeon run, then they should (for the most part) be able to do so.... instead of being hamstrung by artificial rules of scarcity.

In the same vein, people who have gone out of their way to track down/build/buy a really cool&sought-after token should expect that the same token won't be sold in the bargain bins next week/year.

There needs to be a balance. And (as much as possible) people need to think beyond their own personal agendas, to what is good for the game as a whole.

Raven, it is good that we can agree on the goodness of the game we all love.
I often, perhaps too often, mouth off about my personal point of view on issues that others have widely differing positions. I do not wish to cause contention or hard feelings, I just feel a need to express my own opinions.
The true fun of TD is the play of the game; and a great game it is. May it last longer than we do!

I think a clear reprint policy needs to be rolled out. A reserved list would be nice. I would like to see a limit on the number of reprints in a year. 10 - 15% seems a good number. That allows 2-3 reprints a year in the UR category, and 4-6 in Rares and lower.

As for the thrills of TD, I enjoy finding the tokens as much as I do the dungeon itself. I'm not a collector by any means, but I kind of look at getting the right equipment as a side quest for my character. This year is a bit more of a pain, as I am outfitting 1/2 a party, but I am still enjoying the hunt. I enjoy looking at the options, deciding which one is best for what we face, and finding the items in the trade market. Too many reprints would damage this fun for me.

@Paul: I traded away my AoW last year, about this time. I traded it for Ro7P #3, and Mithral Gauntlets. I was able to pick up a HoP on Ebay for a reasonable price after the RoR was announced. You just have to keep watching, and be ready when you see it.