TOPIC: 2006 tokens?

<br />DD, I like that you are thinking about the devaluation!  :^)  I was thinking about that as well and actually, this mix has less of an impact than you might suspect.<br /><br />You need to look at #/$ of the Rares and VRs.  Rares scale with cost per bag so there is no net change in percentage to the number of Rares in circulation.  In otherwords, if you spend $30, there are 6 rares regardless of the bags chosen from this mix.  For VRs, its a little trickier.  Given that Noble packs are $15 and not $10, the VRs are a higher percentage relative to the average 1.33/10 vs. 1/10 (so this is worst case scenario).  However, given that the Travelers Packs will be purchased as "Intro sets", this should keep the percentage of VRs relative to other tokens in check.  <br /><br />-D<br />

<br /><br />But this assumes that the bags will be selling at a equal ratio.<br />So that you have the same balance of commons/rares/very rares entering the hands of your target audience.<br />Look at last years first run of tokens. They were sold out before the con. A large portion go to collectors collection.<br />Do you think they are going to be buying $30 worth of traveler packs which give them 60 commons or , and 6 rares? Or the nobles where they get the 8 common, 6 rares, and 4 very rares?<br />And indeed how many  more will do that, so that they have better fodder for token trading.<br />So you end up with more rares and very rares coming into the market at ratio not equal to the scale of the rarity ratio.<br />I guess my thought is, more of the higher ones will enter than the lower ones, since there is less appeal for those. So the introduction of the commons will not be entering the market in the same rate. <br /><br />But again, I have no experience in these matters. Just a thought was all.<br />

<br />DD, I like that you are thinking about the devaluation!  :^)  I was thinking about that as well and actually, this mix has less of an impact than you might suspect.<br /><br />You need to look at #/$ of the Rares and VRs.  Rares scale with cost per bag so there is no net change in percentage to the number of Rares in circulation.  In otherwords, if you spend $30, there are 6 rares regardless of the bags chosen from this mix.  For VRs, its a little trickier.  Given that Noble packs are $15 and not $10, the VRs are a higher percentage relative to the average 1.33/10 vs. 1/10 (so this is worst case scenario).  However, given that the Travelers Packs will be purchased as "Intro sets", this should keep the percentage of VRs relative to other tokens in check.  <br />

<br /><br />I'm glad someone is good at math--it makes my brain hurt!  Your hard work on the token price guide is much appreciated.  I like this line of thinking with different packs available.  It offers some options for guys like me.  I bought so many tokens last year I simply don't need any more commons.  

As a player, I think that the noble packs are a good idea. From TD perspective, I'm not so sure, as it will mean that I can purchase a lot less tokens and still make a set. Moreover, this means that there will likely be more items like the Wand of CLW and elixirs in circulation which are close to being unbalancing, which is not good for the game.<br /><br /> Also, I'm not so sure about the one full of commons being a good idea. Given the choice, most people will chooose to get a normal pack with the very rare, so they can trade for a potentially much more useful item. This will mean that there might be many, many less common tokens. This could make it much harder to guess how many of each kind of token to print.<br /><br />  Doug, what if there were only two different kinds of bags?<br />Normal bag for $10.<br />Noble bag for $20: 5 commons, 2 rares, 3 very rares -> this gives an advantage in VR's for the collector but less abusability potential.

Hey Guys,<br /><br />Here's a probably oddball thought. <br />A while back there were talks of being able to use your gold to buy titles.<br />What if with your XP Level you got a title:<br />Aspiring Farmhand<br />Squire<br />Apprentice<br />Etc.<br /><br /><br />What if such special token packs were only available to certain level or higher players/title bearers.<br />These would most likely be players who have been die hards, and have less needs for commons. <br />Just like a merchant would naturally offer higher quality goods to nobles that they wouldn't to peasants.<br />But just as a shop keeper might have limited quantities of such items, there would be a cap on how many of these special pack bags they could buy. This would also limit too heavy a flex of the more rare items for upsetting the market too much.<br />Anyways just a thought was all.<br />

hmmmmm. using gold to buy titles???? hmmmmm. get access to special noble packs? hmmmm.

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<br />DD, I like that you are thinking about the devaluation!  :^)  I was thinking about that as well and actually, this mix has less of an impact than you might suspect.<br /><br />You need to look at #/$ of the Rares and VRs.  Rares scale with cost per bag so there is no net change in percentage to the number of Rares in circulation.  In otherwords, if you spend $30, there are 6 rares regardless of the bags chosen from this mix.  For VRs, its a little trickier.  Given that Noble packs are $15 and not $10, the VRs are a higher percentage relative to the average 1.33/10 vs. 1/10 (so this is worst case scenario).  However, given that the Travelers Packs will be purchased as "Intro sets", this should keep the percentage of VRs relative to other tokens in check.  <br /><br />-D<br />

<br /><br />But this assumes that the bags will be selling at a equal ratio.<br />So that you have the same balance of commons/rares/very rares entering the hands of your target audience.<br />Look at last years first run of tokens. They were sold out before the con. A large portion go to collectors collection.<br />Do you think they are going to be buying $30 worth of traveler packs which give them 60 commons or , and 6 rares? Or the nobles where they get the 8 common, 6 rares, and 4 very rares?<br />And indeed how many  more will do that, so that they have better fodder for token trading.<br />So you end up with more rares and very rares coming into the market at ratio not equal to the scale of the rarity ratio.<br />I guess my thought is, more of the higher ones will enter than the lower ones, since there is less appeal for those. So the introduction of the commons will not be entering the market in the same rate. <br /><br />But again, I have no experience in these matters. Just a thought was all.<br /><br />

<br /><br />DD,<br /><br />You raise some valid concerns and excellent points let me give you some examples and I think you will see that if this new method were used, its not quite as bleak as it sounds.   Here are some other points to think about.<br /><br />1)  If TD sold $300 with the current method, you would have 30 VRs in circulation (30 packs * 1 per).  With this new method, say TD sold $50 in Travelers packs, $100 in Adventurers packs, and $150 in Noble packs (as an example), you would still have 30 VRs in circulation (10*0+10*1+10*2).  Even if you sold $20/$100/$180, then you still only have 34 VRs in circulation (a 13% increase per $ spent relative to the other tokens).  Not a huge jump.  The number of Rares in circulation would not change per dollar spent.  <br /><br />2) Also keep in mind that even if you did have VRs increase in percentage relative to the others, the commons #/$ would decrease and thus go up in value.<br /><br />3) Finally, I think with this added flexibility you would give more options to players who might not purchase packs with lots of commons.  And you also give the option to the new player who is just trying out TD for the first time and wants some tokens without the $10 investment.  Ultimately this options space would lead to more bag sales which of course is good for TD.<br /><br />However, if there isn't the manpower to pull this off, it makes the point moot.  Actually, I suggested this a while back in the context of TD running out of VRs.  I proposed that Traveller Packs be assembled (10+1+0) at a discount for people that wanted to buy tokens but couldn't because no bags (with VRs) were available.  <br /><br />Ideally, you want plenty of inventory on hand to sell to token fanatics.  <br /><br />Gotta run, but thanks again for raising the excellent points.<br /><br />-D<br /><br />

I have the feeling that is there multiple types of token packs available, the packs with the extra rares and V. rare will out sell the "normal" packs by 3 or 4 to one.  I know I am planning on purchasing a similar amount of token to what I did last year (60 bags), and I assume there will be more traders this year than there were last year.  I would not be surprised if the traders (and big collectors) purchase at least 1500 bags total. <br /><br />The only reason I stopped at 60 bags last year was I had a complete set of all known tokens.  Since I am missing about 75% of the purples, I have a strong reason to buy token this year.  <br /><br />George<br />

<br />As a player, I think that the noble packs are a good idea. From TD perspective, I'm not so sure, as it will mean that I can purchase a lot less tokens and still make a set. Moreover, this means that there will likely be more items like the Wand of CLW and elixirs in circulation which are close to being unbalancing, which is not good for the game.<br /><br /> Also, I'm not so sure about the one full of commons being a good idea. Given the choice, most people will chooose to get a normal pack with the very rare, so they can trade for a potentially much more useful item. This will mean that there might be many, many less common tokens. This could make it much harder to guess how many of each kind of token to print.<br /><br />  Doug, what if there were only two different kinds of bags?<br />Normal bag for $10.<br />Noble bag for $20: 5 commons, 2 rares, 3 very rares -> this gives an advantage in VR's for the collector but less abusability potential.<br />

<br /><br />From what I can see, that is the equivalent to buying two bags and trading 9 commons and 2 rares in exchange for 1 unknown very rare, does that sound about right?<br />Is that what the trade fodder usually goes for?<br />Or is this a better deal so that more would opt into that?<br />I dunno, thus why I ask.<br /><br />

DD,<br /><br />You raise some valid concerns and excellent points let me give you some examples and I think you will see that if this new method were used, its not quite as bleak as it sounds.   Here are some other points to think about.<br /><br />1)  If TD sold $300 with the current method, you would have 30 VRs in circulation (30 packs * 1 per).  With this new method, say TD sold $50 in Travelers packs, $100 in Adventurers packs, and $150 in Noble packs (as an example), you would still have 30 VRs in circulation (10*0+10*1+10*2).  Even if you sold $20/$100/$180, then you still only have 34 VRs in circulation (a 13% increase per $ spent relative to the other tokens).  Not a huge jump.  The number of Rares in circulation would not change per dollar spent.  <br /><br />2) Also keep in mind that even if you did have VRs increase in percentage relative to the others, the commons #/$ would decrease and thus go up in value.<br /><br />3) Finally, I think with this added flexibility you would give more options to players who might not purchase packs with lots of commons.  And you also give the option to the new player who is just trying out TD for the first time and wants some tokens without the $10 investment.  Ultimately this options space would lead to more bag sales which of course is good for TD.<br /><br />However, if there isn't the manpower to pull this off, it makes the point moot.  Actually, I suggested this a while back in the context of TD running out of VRs.  I proposed that Traveller Packs be assembled (10+1+0) at a discount for people that wanted to buy tokens but couldn't because no bags (with VRs) were available.  <br /><br />Ideally, you want plenty of inventory on hand to sell to token fanatics.  <br />Gotta run, but thanks again for raising the excellent points.<br /><br />-D<br />

<br /><br />Douglas, but your numbers are based on the thought that you would only sell 1/6th more of the noble bags than you would regular.<br />But if you put those out all your collectors will be gunning for them.<br />I have heard multiple people talk about dropping between $200 - $300 on token bags.<br />Being collectors you know they don't want the commons. <br />If one collector opts for the nobles on that kind of purchase look at the diff.<br /><br />$200<br />Getting 20 regular bags @ $10: 40 Rares, and 20 Very Rares<br /><br />$195<br />Getting 13 noble bags @ $15: 39 Rares, and 26 Very Rares<br /><br />Willing to spend $300<br />Getting 30 regular bags @ $10: 60 Rares, and 30 Very Rares<br />Getting 20 noble bags @ $15: 60 Rares, and 40 Very Rares<br /><br />In such numbers you are looking at about the same amount of rares with a 30% increase in Very Rares!<br />Does this look unbalanced to anyone else? Or is it just me?<br />Now I'm sure that the collectors would LOVE to get 30% more Very Rares for their money, but is that keeping things in proper ratio?<br />

DD,<br /><br />Your math is correct but it is for a worst case scenario and represents what will happen if ONLY Noble packs are sold which I don't think will be the case.  <br /><br />So in the end, the projected impact to the value of VRs comes down to guesstimates on the percentages sold of each pack (Travelers, Adventures, Nobles).  <br /><br />Also note that this system is somewhat self-regulating over the long term.  As VRs lost their value (slightly), the Noble packs would be less desireable, right?  <br /><br />And with a system like this, isn't it more likely that TD will sell more pouches (i.e. raise more money for TD)?  As you mentioned, I think there are indications that people would spend more on Noble pouches than they would on Standard pouches.<br /><br />Very good points though and certainly something that should be considered should this plan be implemented.<br />Douglas<br />

Is it more likely TD sells more bags if they have different contents???...I don't know - that is a pretty big assumption IMHO.<br /><br />I have a token budget (to keep me under control and spending on other things that I like) - and only a super sale drives me to buy more bags than what I budget.<br /><br />The different bags won't change my budget - but a "bagless sale" or a "bonus bag" deal or Golden Ticket deal or free prop deal might.<br /><br />So I would say Sis has it down pretty good - people may buy a mix of bags and ensure they get the commons they want - and TD would make/save some expenses by selling fewer tokens for the same $$$ and less bags.  But I think that is small beer compared to TD selling out of 500 bags in the first day of a CON. JMHO - I think TD has to tread carefully as the traders at the CON will surely be tapping the needs of people that want the better tokens...and specialized bags seem to have not caught on in all the previous discussions we have had on that subject.<br /><br />Hey - did anyone catch the recent eBay sales of tokens? 

Okay, my thought is that the suggested nobles pack is too unbalancing on the side of large purchases.<br />Large orders consisting of noble orders would get about the same rares, and a 30% increase in vr's.<br />So your big collectors would probably end up spending less, cause they would be getting more of what they really want.<br />VR's will always be high demand since they are the best you can usually buy.<br /><br />Douglas I've been looking at the number for token to $ ration and value of tokens. And figuring out what those token numbers equal to dollars spent. <br />Might I suggest, if the event is so inclined to do such a thing, as this would make token bag making more complicated, and also sales, making sure you're staff hand over the right bags, plus we usually sell out of bags at the con, so I'm sure we will have unhappy players if the only token bags they can buy are all commons.<br />But a median between your suggested adventurer and noble pack.<br /><br />A Merchants Pack:$12.50 would have 5 commons, 4 rares, and 1 very rare. The '00' bags of these would get 2 very rares.<br />So fewer commons, more rares, and an outside shot a two very rares.<br />Doesn't really give too much of an advantage for the big spenders, but has less common fodder to put up with. And more rares for negotiating for very rares.<br /><br />In my opinion 2 vr's in packs for $15 is just too unbalancing. Especially when if you factor in large orders.<br />A travelers pack for $5, a adventures pack for $10 and merchants for $12.50 I could see.<br />The five dollar packs could be great for those who are leary about putting any more money in an event they know nothing about. And could see people using those to get their youngins started in token trading.<br />And respects the value of packed tokens according to the current estimates Douglas quoted:<br />Commons on average = $0.34<br />Rares on average = $1.26<br />Very Rares on average = $5.10<br /><br />Anyways just a thought on the conversation.

As much as I love tokens, I think that TD should probably shy away from making them any more complicated than they are now.