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TOPIC: 2011 Token Guide (version 10) feedback

Re: 2011 Token Guide (version 10) feedback 12 years 11 months ago #49

Incognito wrote: I was looking through the the Monster Ingredients in the 2011 Token Guide, and noticed it had listed:

2009 True Realm - 2003 Retro
Creeper Thorn, Skeleton Tooth, Mimic Slime

2009 True Dungeon (Indy)
Satyr Wine, Ogre Tusk, Harpy Talon



I thought that the Creeper Thorn was only at 2009 Indy, and it was the Ogre Tusk that was at True Realm.

There was definitely the Ogre at True Realm (it was where the Rogue could go through the tunnel and screw his party for the t-shirt). There was no Creeper, but there was a Shambling Mound in the other expanded (non-Retro) dungeon.

Also, if you recall, there was a major run on Creeper Thorns the following year because many of those who attended True Realm did *not* do the dungeon at Indy where you could get the Thorns. So I'm pretty sure the Thorn was not available at True Realm, and it needs to be swapped with the Ogre Tusk.

You might be right, I will talk to Jeff, but I think the "shambling mound" was considered the same as a creeper, for the sake of the event... There was an Ogre/Troll like character at Indy as well, but I will check with Jeff and see what he remembers...

Dave
You should know better than to pick up a duck in a dungeon....

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Re: 2011 Token Guide (version 10) feedback 12 years 11 months ago #50

Hi Dave,

I have a couple of questions regarding Token Set abilities (Pages 6-7 of the Token Guide).

First, once someone is using a token set and gaining the set abilities, are they "locked into" those tokens for the adventure and can't switch out for other tokens? I know I've heard talk about it on the forums, especially in relation to the 3 Item Might Set ability, but also in general for all set abilities, but there is no mention of it in the Token Guide like there is for the Horn of Plenty and Amulet of Wonder.

Speaking of which - I think the Guide needs to be updated to add the Ring of Riches in with the Horn of Plenty and Amulet of Wonder on Page Six as items that have to be declared in the training room and can't be switched out during the adventure.

The second question is regarding the 5 Item Mithral Set ability. I've read on the forums that some people are outfitting with all 5 Mithral Items to get a "Deadbane" ability to do 10 damage to any undead that hits them in melee. Is that 5 Item Mithral Set ability official? If so, it should probably be added to Pages 5-6 of the Token Guide, currently it only lists a 3 Item Mithral Set ability.

Thanks!!
Mike

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Re: 2011 Token Guide (version 10) feedback 12 years 11 months ago #51

Mike, check out posts 43-44 in this thread. Dave did confirm there is a 5 set power for undeadbane.

dbradical wrote: Yes it did, I will be adding back the 5 piece powers.

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Re: 2011 Token Guide (version 10) feedback 12 years 11 months ago #52

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dbradical wrote:
You are not reducing your ability to hit the monster, you are reducing the monster's AC. At least that is the way I interpreted it and wrote the section in the guide. The problem is Jeff changes the wording on stuff based on way too many factors including the earths magnetic declination, so I will check with him to be sure...

Dave


The way I've read the token since it was introduced was that you were reducing the monster's ability to hit you. There's no real reason to write it this way if all you're doing is reducing their AC.
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Last edit: by Raywind.

Re: 2011 Token Guide (version 10) feedback 12 years 11 months ago #53

greyseer wrote: Mike, check out posts 43-44 in this thread. Dave did confirm there is a 5 set power for undeadbane.

dbradical wrote: Yes it did, I will be adding back the 5 piece powers.


Thanks, Nathan, I missed those posts. Hopefully Dave can still respond to the other questions in my email. :)

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Re: 2011 Token Guide (version 10) feedback 12 years 11 months ago #54

Mike Steele wrote: Hi Dave,
First, once someone is using a token set and gaining the set abilities, are they "locked into" those tokens for the adventure and can't switch out for other tokens? I know I've heard talk about it on the forums, especially in relation to the 3 Item Might Set ability, but also in general for all set abilities, but there is no mention of it in the Token Guide like there is for the Horn of Plenty and Amulet of Wonder.


Yes, I need to add a comment to the guide about set powers. Essentially to get the benefit from the set, they must remain on the entire time. Being able to change sets out would really mess up the party cards, etc. So Jeff has indicated anything with a set power must be worn for the adventure.

Dave
You should know better than to pick up a duck in a dungeon....

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Re: 2011 Token Guide (version 10) feedback 12 years 11 months ago #55

dbradical wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Hi Dave,
First, once someone is using a token set and gaining the set abilities, are they "locked into" those tokens for the adventure and can't switch out for other tokens? I know I've heard talk about it on the forums, especially in relation to the 3 Item Might Set ability, but also in general for all set abilities, but there is no mention of it in the Token Guide like there is for the Horn of Plenty and Amulet of Wonder.


Yes, I need to add a comment to the guide about set powers. Essentially to get the benefit from the set, they must remain on the entire time. Being able to change sets out would really mess up the party cards, etc. So Jeff has indicated anything with a set power must be worn for the adventure.

Dave



I'm still puzzled why people think that changing set items would mess up the party cards so much.

I agree it applies to the Might set, especially the 3-piece (5th level) ability, and to a lesser degree, the extra melee damage from 4 and 5-piece Might sets.

But I *don't* see how changing items in any of the remaining sets would affect the party card (any more than changing non-set items):

- Dragonscale set provides fire reduction, which normally isn't on the party card (with the one exception of the Smoak year)

- Mithral 3-piece provides half damage from breath weapons, which normally isn't on the party card (with the one exception of the Smoak year)

- Mithral 5-piece provides Undead bane effect, which isn't noted on the party card.

- Celestial set provides melee/mental protection against Outsiders, which isn't noted on the party card.


The Smoak damage calculation is a bit of an exception, since it also requires normal items (i.e. Ring of Fire Resistance) to be fixed.

But other than that one special case, the non-Might sets don't affect the party card at all, so the argument that "allowing changes would mess up the party card" does not seem to be valid.

The Might set is quite strong, and definitely should be limited by requiring the items to be locked in. But most of the other sets are extremely corner-case in nature (especially those working against a specific monster type). Since they are already very narrow in use, I don't see why they should be made even weaker by locking them in.

Doing so makes other tokens also significantly weaker (the Coronet of the Arch-Druid if the Druid is wearing the Dragonscale set, or the Shield of Redemption if the Cleric/Paladin is using Dragonscale, Dirtdizzy Boots if you want to swap out the Mithral Boots, Bracelets of the Zephyr if the Cleric wants to cast spells for a particular combat). Plus, it could be especially debilitating if the player has a weapon that is "locked in" (+1 Mithral Long Sword or +1 Celestial Keen Long Sword) but the weapon type turns out to be non-effective (monster immune to slashing weapons, or needs at least a +2 weapon to affect, or underwater or other weapon restrictions).

Once again, I agree with fixing the Might items as non-swappable, but I fail to see why it is so necessary for the other sets.

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Last edit: by Incognito.

Re: 2011 Token Guide (version 10) feedback 12 years 11 months ago #56

I see your point with some tokens - for instance I did swap out my Dragonscale Helm for the Coronet of the Arch-Druid, and that would no longer be allowed.

I actually think some regular tokens, that affect the party card, should be locked anyway. For instance, the Mithral Boots affect savings throws, armor class, etc. If you outfit those in the coaches room, and have all those bonuses on your card, and then swap the boots out for Dirtdazzy's boots, the bonuses are all still on the party card. It seems for simplicity that anything that directly affects the Party Card might be best being locked.

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Re: 2011 Token Guide (version 10) feedback 12 years 11 months ago #57

Mike Steele wrote: I see your point with some tokens - for instance I did swap out my Dragonscale Helm for the Coronet of the Arch-Druid, and that would no longer be allowed.

I actually think some regular tokens, that affect the party card, should be locked anyway. For instance, the Mithral Boots affect savings throws, armor class, etc. If you outfit those in the coaches room, and have all those bonuses on your card, and then swap the boots out for Dirtdazzy's boots, the bonuses are all still on the party card. It seems for simplicity that anything that directly affects the Party Card might be best being locked.



Yeah, that leads directly to the related issue of whether *any* equipment should be swappable or not. I'm ambivalent about it (I could see arguments for either side), but I do think it should be consistent with whatever is eventually decided for the "sets".

If Mithral Boots can't be changed because it affects AC/Saving Throws/Missile Hit, then the same should also apply to Gloves of Dexterity (which aren't technically part of a set) because they otherwise have the same effect (+ Dexterity).

And as noted, it is quite *common* for people to swap out their primary weapon for a more specialized weapon during combat.

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Re: 2011 Token Guide (version 10) feedback 12 years 11 months ago #58

Incognito wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I see your point with some tokens - for instance I did swap out my Dragonscale Helm for the Coronet of the Arch-Druid, and that would no longer be allowed.

I actually think some regular tokens, that affect the party card, should be locked anyway. For instance, the Mithral Boots affect savings throws, armor class, etc. If you outfit those in the coaches room, and have all those bonuses on your card, and then swap the boots out for Dirtdazzy's boots, the bonuses are all still on the party card. It seems for simplicity that anything that directly affects the Party Card might be best being locked.



Yeah, that leads directly to the related issue of whether *any* equipment should be swappable or not. I'm ambivalent about it (I could see arguments for either side), but I do think it should be consistent with whatever is eventually decided for the "sets".

If Mithral Boots can't be changed because it affects AC/Saving Throws/Missile Hit, then the same should also apply to Gloves of Dexterity (which aren't technically part of a set) because they otherwise have the same effect (+ Dexterity).

And as noted, it is quite *common* for people to swap out their primary weapon for a more specialized weapon during combat.


Agreed, Gloves of Dexterity would be included, as well as all AC and HP modifying items. Anything that altered what was on the Party Card.

I do agree that people swap out weapons. I'm purposely keeping the Fighters from using the Scepter of Might so that they can use the Cestus of Sundering for a few hits and then switch to the Dread Sword (still trying to get a 2nd one for Fighter #2).

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Re: 2011 Token Guide (version 10) feedback 12 years 11 months ago #59

Besides normal things like weapons, I am totally for a no swap rule. I don't think it is right to carry all the rings, etc., and use them as you please. In an earlir statement one changed out the DragonScale helm for a Arch-Druid Cor. The helm applied the 10 points of fire reduction plus is 2 AC. This shouldn't be able to occur. All of this adds confusion and lost time (for the DM to recalculate) to the run. I also think it is a little more challeging (fun) to go in with set items. In DnD, unless stated ahead of time, when the action started, it wasn't allowed for item/armor/etc. swaps.

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Re: 2011 Token Guide (version 10) feedback 12 years 11 months ago #60

DonaldR66 wrote: Besides normal things like weapons, I am totally for a no swap rule. I don't think it is right to carry all the rings, etc., and use them as you please. In an earlir statement one changed out the DragonScale helm for a Arch-Druid Cor. The helm applied the 10 points of fire reduction plus is 2 AC. This shouldn't be able to occur. All of this adds confusion and lost time (for the DM to recalculate) to the run. I also think it is a little more challeging (fun) to go in with set items. In DnD, unless stated ahead of time, when the action started, it wasn't allowed for item/armor/etc. swaps.


I could certainly live with that, with the added restriction of not swapping weapons that are set items (which is already being made the rule).

Sometimes I picture some people going through the Dungeon like the Mandarin, with 10 rings, and just picking the two that were most appropriate for each occasion :)

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