TOPIC: Re: Micro Buyers Guild

My understanding of the Micro Treasury was that it might function sort of like the "Have a penny, leave a penny, need a penny, take a penny" dishes which some stores have. It's a very convenient way for people to outfit themselves (and others) without needing to buy or trade for commons, and sometimes people can swap uncommons or rares as well. However, as soon as people start expecting trades to be "equal" or that people would not get greedy over an Ultra-rare in the pot, there's likely to be trouble. Are you planning to have someone track each micro-trade from the treasury? What if arguments come up about the relative values of tokens? Let's say that a Spear of Dragon Slaying lands in the treasury... I would *gladly* swap it out for my 1000GP Sapphire necklace. That's a purp for a purp trade, right? Or what if I tossed in an Elixir of Life instead? Is someone going to demand I put in a (roughly equal value) UR weapon token? Will the UR sit there unused when a dozen people wish they could be carrying it into the dungeon? That's not really the point of it, is it?<br /><br />Even on a smaller scale than trading for URs... what about Commons like healing tokens? How fast would those be pulled from the pool in trade for commons like Turkey legs or daggers? Is someone going to police it and monitor the trades? And what if one person's opinion of what is a good trade differs from another's?<br /><br />I guess what I'm saying is, the idea sounds like a good one as long as no one is "counting the pennies" so to speak.<br /><br /><br />(Note: I am not a part of the MicroBuyersGuild, so my comments can be dismissed if they don't reflect the feelings of people who actively participate)

Raven, I completely agree with your observations. This is why I'm suggesting we sort this out at the beginning, before there are any physical assets to argue about. The communal bank model does need to factor for exactly the issues you are raising, unless it is going to only be contributed to by utterly altruistic benefactors. <br /><br />The tithe system still allows for some of the abuses you raised, but helps to mitigate them by making the tokens property of the guild rather than the individual contributors. And, since in the tithe system everyone contributes one pack blindly, as long as the treasurer is honest, everyone has the potential to benefit equally. <br /><br />In the tithe system you would be checking the tokens out of the treasury for your run and returning them once you concluded or at the end of the Con. Consumables do present a flaw in this model, by I think we can devise a solution, such as raffling consumables or requiring an equivalent trade in.<br /><br />Regardless, it still bears some discussion and agreement on how to proceed.

<br />My understanding of the Micro Treasury was that it might function sort of like the "Have a penny, leave a penny, need a penny, take a penny" dishes which some stores have. It's a very convenient way for people to outfit themselves (and others) without needing to buy or trade for commons, and sometimes people can swap uncommons or rares as well. However, as soon as people start expecting trades to be "equal" or that people would not get greedy over an Ultra-rare in the pot, there's likely to be trouble. Are you planning to have someone track each micro-trade from the treasury? What if arguments come up about the relative values of tokens? Let's say that a Spear of Dragon Slaying lands in the treasury... I would *gladly* swap it out for my 1000GP Sapphire necklace. That's a purp for a purp trade, right? Or what if I tossed in an Elixir of Life instead? Is someone going to demand I put in a (roughly equal value) UR weapon token? Will the UR sit there unused when a dozen people wish they could be carrying it into the dungeon? That's not really the point of it, is it?<br /><br />Even on a smaller scale than trading for URs... what about Commons like healing tokens? How fast would those be pulled from the pool in trade for commons like Turkey legs or daggers? Is someone going to police it and monitor the trades? And what if one person's opinion of what is a good trade differs from another's?<br /><br />I guess what I'm saying is, the idea sounds like a good one as long as no one is "counting the pennies" so to speak.<br /><br /><br />(Note: I am not a part of the MicroBuyersGuild, so my comments can be dismissed if they don't reflect the feelings of people who actively participate)<br />

<br />Don't let smak be the treasurer...he already owns postal outfits to steal tokens this would just give him another way to do it

I don't think this is the guild he's looking for. The Mega Buyers Guild seems more his type.

Ok my math might be off but I am guessing the $50 contributors get 6 packs, the 25's 3 packs and the same entry into the PYP drawing?<br />

<br />I don't think this is the guild he's looking for. The Mega Buyers Guild seems more his type. <br />

<br />he will take any "free" tokens he can get

<br />Well I could go for $50 I guess so just let me know what happens.<br />

<br /><br />Next purchase:             Real soon<br />                                 Eldrad $50.<br /><br /><br />Anyone else? Kerwin?

<br />As far as the Guild Treasury goes, here are the basic guidelines I feel are important. This is the way I envisioned things to go, but we all should decided how to do this.<br />What do you think of these ideas?<br />1) Trading should be open to any current Guild member who has donated one or more unopened ten packs to the Trade Treasury. This allows Guild members to participate in the Trade Treasury as they desire. No one is required to donate or participate.<br />2) Donated tokens may be traded for on a like for like basis. Rare for rare, etc. (We could institute a system of “equal” trading beyond rarities, but I am not gung-ho on that idea. Like Raven pointed out, it would require a lot of judgments on relative values and debates on various trades. Too much, too much. Yes, the good tokens will be taken out and replaced by poorer tokens; so be it. The whole reason for this enterprise is so that we can better play the game through better tokens. This should be a boon to members. Those lesser tokens (mostly) can be recycled into trade items and put back into the treasury as is or rendered into combo tokens for us to trade for. I would suggest that monetary tokens be grouped and sold for dollars. This money should then be reinvested in more tokens.) <br />3) The number of tokens you may trade for is limited by the number of tokens you have donated in the form of unopened ten packs. Random selection of these ten packs is fair, just, and proper. (Donations of various and sundry tokens is greatly appreciated, but should not be counted towards trading rights. Just my personal opinion.)<br />4) To avoid mad rushes to trade for highly desired tokens, I suggest that all trading be done according to a prearranged order, in repetitious cycles. For example, these “members” should trade (or pass) in this order: Tom, Mary, Susan, Bill, Bob, and Jill. Then continuously repeat. New members have their names added and the system continues on.  When the 2011 tokens come out, we start all over with a new list of names.<br />5) All shipping costs are to be paid for by the trader. The Guild has no monies for this. <br />6) All trades are for personal use only. The Guild should not be used to outfit others or for trade fodder.<br />7) A loaner program for in dungeon use of tokens still in the treasury sounds like a cool idea, but there are several obvious problems. A large one is, who will run the thing at gencon?<br /><br />I see a couple of potential problems here. <br />A) If I donate a ten pack and am limited to trading for only 1 rare, 2 uncommons, and 7 commons (oops, I forgot to include Lore tokens); I may never be able to trade for a purp unless I am the one who donates the 00 ten pack. And, how can we ever qualify to trade for a Combo Token? Yet, if we don’t limit trades I may just trade for ten rares and go. That would not be right either. <br />

Let me see what the weekend brings.  I will let you know the next couple of days.

I've got some thoughts on this, from the viewpoint of someone that won't be a member, but thinks it's a really interesting idea that could be pursued.  <br /><br />I could easily see, with trading allowed of Rare for Rare, Uncommon for Uncommon, etc. , the Guild Treasury could very quickly become a large pile of worthless tokens that nobody in the guild would even want to use.  There would be no chance of anything truly good like a Beryl Prism Ioun Stone staying in there for more than a few seconds.  Allowing trades makes it less a Guild Treasury and more just a way to redistribute the better tokens from that year's set (which is fine if that's what you're looking for).  <br /><br />How about treating it more like a library?  Once tokens go in, they can be "checked out" for use in that year's dungeon, but must be "checked back in" after the Dungeon is over (the person doing the "checking out" paying the postage both ways).   The tokens donated from the unopened packs would become guild property, regardless of whether they contained a 00, GT, or whatever - although you could have a clause if you want that people get 00 & GT tokens back.  That way, over time, the Guild Treasury could grow so that there would be a very nice selection of tokens that members could outfit themselves with.  If a Belt of Ogre Strength goes into the Treasury, that Belt would be in the Guild Treasury year after year for members to use.  Even from the outside, it would be really fun to watch as the Guild Treasury grew and grew into a really impressive collection of tokens - perhaps eventually it would rival Smoak's hoard.  You'd even develop a "Crown Jewels" set of the top tokens in the Guild   =)<br /><br />Tokens like Consumables, GP/Gems, Golden Tickets, could all be sold or traded for non-consumable tokens to be part of the pool.  Combo Tokens that are traded for using Guild Tokens would also be part of the permanent pool, plus any donated tokens.  <br /><br />The members of the Guild could have a random order selected each year of picking.  One complication is how to treat the difference between people that have been members for multiple years versus someone that just joined that year.  A couple of options:<br />Option 1)  Perhaps when a person picks, they get to pick the number of picks equal to the number of years they have "paid dues" into the guild?  That way, if someone donated packs of tokens into the guild for five consecutive years, they get five picks per round so that they are compensated for the amount that they donated into the pool.  Of course, if tokens are just for personal use of members, those members might get all the tokens they need from the pool in a round or two, while newer members might still be selecting tokens into later rounds.  And once someone paid into the Guild, they would become members for life even if they stopped paying dues.  They would just get picks based upon how many different years they paid dues.  <br />Option 2)  Another option is to order the picks so the people that have been members longest and paid the most dues get to pick before those with less seniority - that might be a better approach, or the new players might find all the good tokens chosen before they get a pick.  <br /><br />You could have honorary guild titles based upon how many years people have paid dues also - as more incentive for people to pay dues year after year.  <br /><br />Another way to treat lesser consumable tokens would be to allow members to take them as their picks for that year, but consumables don't have to be checked back in.  Just another option, in addition to the option of selling/trading consumables to buy more tokens to add into the pool.  Perhaps if consumables have a market value of less than $3 they could be selected & used by members instead of sold/traded?  <br /><br />Perhaps check out/in at GENCON could be an option also to save shipping costs for members.  <br /><br />One risk is of what happens if a member doesn't "check back in" their tokens after that year's GENCON?  Obviously they'd be kicked out of the guild, ostracized, etc.  I think forum members tend to be extremely trustworthy and a very tight-knit group, so hopefully that wouldn't be a problem.  <br /><br />The main advantage I see of this system is that it would make the Guild Token Treasury increasingly valuable & useful to members each year, accumulating quality tokens that could be used by Guild Members year after year in the Dungeons.  

Mike's idea is along the lines of what I was thinking for the tithe system model. <br /><br />I also really like the ideas that Molda has suggested. It almost seems to develop the treasury in a third model, a communal draft pool. Essentially, on a yearly basis the pool is going to get cleared out of the good tokens, but fresh good tokens get seeded in every year prior to the draft. <br /><br />I'll write more on this later. I'm on the train now and hate composing long posts on my phone.  

Another thought is that the guild treasurer could take and convert the commons and uncommons into trade items.  The guild could set a value on the trade item or sell it on ebay or the forums for cash to buy more tokens.  Or the guild could just keep the trade item and use it to build something and that item would belong to the guild and could be "checked out".