jpotter wrote:
Picc wrote:
I dont think I have the right to tell anyone else what to do, even if I think getting the vaccine is a really really good idea.
Rights dont ever "end". If they do, IMO, they are not rights.
Neither you nor anyone else has a right to endanger me or my family. If you believe that you do, I'd like to hear your thoughts on laws in general. Do you feel that they are infringing on your right to shoot others? Do you feel they are infringing on your right to drive down the opposite side of the street and hit people who are following the rules?
Do you feel that restaurants and supermarkets should be free to serve people rotten food? How about laws for cleanliness? Do all of these infringe upon the rights of the people working there?
This is not false equivalency. Not wearing a mask or getting the vaccine will result in preventable deaths. If you feel you have a right to do those things, I assume you feel the right to ignore all laws made to protect others?
JACKOFTRADZE wrote: Whatever happened to my body, my choice?
They have been wrong about everything from the get go, so why is questioning the entire situation, rushed vaccines and the competency of the people pushing forced compliance being a crackpot? If you feel comfortable getting the vaccine go for it, if you don't that's ok too.
THIS is false equivalency. You do whatever you want with your body. If it endangers the community, however, you need to stop it.
Also who has been wrong about everything from the get-go?
It's not ok for people to not get the vaccine without a valid medical reason, for the myriad of reasons that Fred stated above. Those people's refusal will result in preventable deaths. It may even lead to further outbreaks and vaccines becoming ineffective due to new variants.
Some of you are saying we're all in this together. No we aren't. There are those of us willing to be slightly inconvenienced and to get a shot for the betterment of the community. Then there are a bunch of selfish people who want the rest of us to shoulder the burden, but still want to maintain the benefits of living in our society. Those people aren't in it with us. They've decided they are on nobody's side but their own.
100% agree.
The idea that rights are unlimited is ridiculous. Law is designed to limit individual rights in order to maximize the freedoms or rights of the aggregate whole. We accept limits on what we can do to join society. That premise is the basic social contract in which civilization is built.
Examples:
You aren’t allowed to poison food and sell it to others without consequences.
You can’t yell fire in a crowed theater getting people killed.
You can’t knowingly walk into a nursing home with a active case of Covid. That becomes manslaughter.
In this case, your right to assembly should be limited if your presence would injure others. Your right to autonomy of your body is limited to how your using that right may kill others (not getting vaccinated, going to group gatherings while suffering from infectious diseases, etc,)
It is funny to see libertarians preach about responsibility except when it means being held for their own actions.
A fundamental right is inherently limited. It only takes precedence when it doesn’t conflict with the rights of others. Your right to speech is not more important than my right to life (yelling fire in a crowded theater), your right of free religion doesn’t mean you can go Old Testament and stone LGBT people (or those with tattoos), your freedom of association is limited if the gathering is to plan to bomb a building. Your rights to free speech on this very forum are limited. If you post porn, you will be banned. You made a choice to participate.
All fundamental rights are INHERENTLY limited by you agreeing to join society. In the wild, if you choose not to participate in society they would be unlimited. The fact that you made a post on an Internet forum run by a commercial company demonstrates that you voided those unlimited rights in order to have this conversation.
As for further radicalization - I am losing hope that those opposing masks and vaccines are open to reason. They are demonstrating an amazing amount of selfishness- it makes more sense to appeal to their interest in not being excluded and exposed. When was the last time you convinced a flat Earther that the world is round? The anti-science crowd including the anti-vaxxers usually do not change their views because someone presented a reasonable and logical argument. The data is overwhelming on that point. They change when the people they most respect convince them and when they are forced to change either by getting sick themselves or because of consequences forced on them by others.
As an employer, the EEOC just ruled I can require all staff to be vaccinated. I am rolling that policy out next week (with medical exceptions for the 1/10th of 1% of the population who can’t get vaccinated.) Staff can choose not to get vaccinated. That choice has consequences. The safety of those we interact with is more important than ignorant anti-science prejudices a person may hold.
Because of the EEOC ruling, I am hopeful that the same principle is expanded to all large group gatherings. It does mean TD can require it of all staff and volunteers (and should.) Universities can require vaccination now - hopefully we can pressure everyone to get there so the body count can stop.
Fred