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TOPIC: Vaccine and masking debate, trying to shift this off the gencon update thread

Vaccine and masking debate, trying to shift this off the gencon update thread 5 months 1 week ago #25

jpotter wrote:

Picc wrote:
I dont think I have the right to tell anyone else what to do, even if I think getting the vaccine is a really really good idea.

Rights dont ever "end". If they do, IMO, they are not rights.


Neither you nor anyone else has a right to endanger me or my family. If you believe that you do, I'd like to hear your thoughts on laws in general. Do you feel that they are infringing on your right to shoot others? Do you feel they are infringing on your right to drive down the opposite side of the street and hit people who are following the rules?

Do you feel that restaurants and supermarkets should be free to serve people rotten food? How about laws for cleanliness? Do all of these infringe upon the rights of the people working there?

This is not false equivalency. Not wearing a mask or getting the vaccine will result in preventable deaths. If you feel you have a right to do those things, I assume you feel the right to ignore all laws made to protect others?

JACKOFTRADZE wrote: Whatever happened to my body, my choice?

They have been wrong about everything from the get go, so why is questioning the entire situation, rushed vaccines and the competency of the people pushing forced compliance being a crackpot? If you feel comfortable getting the vaccine go for it, if you don't that's ok too.


THIS is false equivalency. You do whatever you want with your body. If it endangers the community, however, you need to stop it.

Also who has been wrong about everything from the get-go?

It's not ok for people to not get the vaccine without a valid medical reason, for the myriad of reasons that Fred stated above. Those people's refusal will result in preventable deaths. It may even lead to further outbreaks and vaccines becoming ineffective due to new variants.

Some of you are saying we're all in this together. No we aren't. There are those of us willing to be slightly inconvenienced and to get a shot for the betterment of the community. Then there are a bunch of selfish people who want the rest of us to shoulder the burden, but still want to maintain the benefits of living in our society. Those people aren't in it with us. They've decided they are on nobody's side but their own.


If you and your family are vaccinated, the CDC has said that you're now safe from COVID in small and large crowds. How is someone not being vaccinated endangering your family? They might be endangering their health, but it shouldn't be endangering yours.

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Vaccine and masking debate, trying to shift this off the gencon update thread 5 months 1 week ago #26

Mike Steele wrote:

jpotter wrote:

Picc wrote:
I dont think I have the right to tell anyone else what to do, even if I think getting the vaccine is a really really good idea.

Rights dont ever "end". If they do, IMO, they are not rights.


Neither you nor anyone else has a right to endanger me or my family. If you believe that you do, I'd like to hear your thoughts on laws in general. Do you feel that they are infringing on your right to shoot others? Do you feel they are infringing on your right to drive down the opposite side of the street and hit people who are following the rules?

Do you feel that restaurants and supermarkets should be free to serve people rotten food? How about laws for cleanliness? Do all of these infringe upon the rights of the people working there?

This is not false equivalency. Not wearing a mask or getting the vaccine will result in preventable deaths. If you feel you have a right to do those things, I assume you feel the right to ignore all laws made to protect others?

JACKOFTRADZE wrote: Whatever happened to my body, my choice?

They have been wrong about everything from the get go, so why is questioning the entire situation, rushed vaccines and the competency of the people pushing forced compliance being a crackpot? If you feel comfortable getting the vaccine go for it, if you don't that's ok too.


THIS is false equivalency. You do whatever you want with your body. If it endangers the community, however, you need to stop it.

Also who has been wrong about everything from the get-go?

It's not ok for people to not get the vaccine without a valid medical reason, for the myriad of reasons that Fred stated above. Those people's refusal will result in preventable deaths. It may even lead to further outbreaks and vaccines becoming ineffective due to new variants.

Some of you are saying we're all in this together. No we aren't. There are those of us willing to be slightly inconvenienced and to get a shot for the betterment of the community. Then there are a bunch of selfish people who want the rest of us to shoulder the burden, but still want to maintain the benefits of living in our society. Those people aren't in it with us. They've decided they are on nobody's side but their own.


If you and your family are vaccinated, the CDC has said that you're now safe from COVID in small and large crowds. How is someone not being vaccinated endangering your family? They might be endangering their health, but it shouldn't be endangering yours.

I believe the average is every 10M cases yields a mutation to the virus, and any one of those potentially is the one that makes the vaccines ineffective and starts us all over from step 1.

Personally, I am immuno compromised - I was still able to get the vaccine (I don’t have as bad a situation as some people do), but there is still some risk to me even vaccinated. Given this, I rely on the rest of society to get the vaccine and give me a helping hand. This ALSO means I have exceptionally low tolerance to “but I don’t wanna get a shot - I want to endanger you “.

Given that my health is tied to basically scientifically proven vaccines (also now field tested on a large population), I fully support a vaccine passport system that requires a shot to participate in any kind of social gathering. You want to sit home alone and skip the shot, fine with me. You want to join 40k people at gen con? No problem, just pop open that proof of vaccination.

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Vaccine and masking debate, trying to shift this off the gencon update thread 5 months 1 week ago #27

Mike Steele wrote: If you and your family are vaccinated, the CDC has said that you're now safe from COVID in small and large crowds. How is someone not being vaccinated endangering your family? They might be endangering their health, but it shouldn't be endangering yours.


By refusing vaccination, people will continue to pass the virus back and forth. This will increase the odds of mutations, which eventually could be divergent enough from the current strain that current vaccines don't work.

They are already seeing new mutant strains in India. This is all far from over.

Everyone getting vaccinated helps us to protect the vulnerable. The children who can't get the vaccine. The immunocompromised people who can't get the vaccine.

This thread fascinating. I see a lot of apologizing for people not getting the vaccine. I like that most of that arguing comes from a place of respecting individual's rights and wanting to treat others with respect and kindness. I hope you all get vaccinated and convince others to do the same.

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Vaccine and masking debate, trying to shift this off the gencon update thread 5 months 1 week ago #28

jpotter wrote:

Picc wrote:
I dont think I have the right to tell anyone else what to do, even if I think getting the vaccine is a really really good idea.

Rights dont ever "end". If they do, IMO, they are not rights.


Neither you nor anyone else has a right to endanger me or my family. If you believe that you do, I'd like to hear your thoughts on laws in general. Do you feel that they are infringing on your right to shoot others? Do you feel they are infringing on your right to drive down the opposite side of the street and hit people who are following the rules?

Do you feel that restaurants and supermarkets should be free to serve people rotten food? How about laws for cleanliness? Do all of these infringe upon the rights of the people working there?

This is not false equivalency. Not wearing a mask or getting the vaccine will result in preventable deaths. If you feel you have a right to do those things, I assume you feel the right to ignore all laws made to protect others?

JACKOFTRADZE wrote: Whatever happened to my body, my choice?

They have been wrong about everything from the get go, so why is questioning the entire situation, rushed vaccines and the competency of the people pushing forced compliance being a crackpot? If you feel comfortable getting the vaccine go for it, if you don't that's ok too.


THIS is false equivalency. You do whatever you want with your body. If it endangers the community, however, you need to stop it.

Also who has been wrong about everything from the get-go?

It's not ok for people to not get the vaccine without a valid medical reason, for the myriad of reasons that Fred stated above. Those people's refusal will result in preventable deaths. It may even lead to further outbreaks and vaccines becoming ineffective due to new variants.

Some of you are saying we're all in this together. No we aren't. There are those of us willing to be slightly inconvenienced and to get a shot for the betterment of the community. Then there are a bunch of selfish people who want the rest of us to shoulder the burden, but still want to maintain the benefits of living in our society. Those people aren't in it with us. They've decided they are on nobody's side but their own.


100% agree.

The idea that rights are unlimited is ridiculous. Law is designed to limit individual rights in order to maximize the freedoms or rights of the aggregate whole. We accept limits on what we can do to join society. That premise is the basic social contract in which civilization is built.
Examples:
You aren’t allowed to poison food and sell it to others without consequences.
You can’t yell fire in a crowed theater getting people killed.
You can’t knowingly walk into a nursing home with a active case of Covid. That becomes manslaughter.

In this case, your right to assembly should be limited if your presence would injure others. Your right to autonomy of your body is limited to how your using that right may kill others (not getting vaccinated, going to group gatherings while suffering from infectious diseases, etc,)

It is funny to see libertarians preach about responsibility except when it means being held for their own actions.

A fundamental right is inherently limited. It only takes precedence when it doesn’t conflict with the rights of others. Your right to speech is not more important than my right to life (yelling fire in a crowded theater), your right of free religion doesn’t mean you can go Old Testament and stone LGBT people (or those with tattoos), your freedom of association is limited if the gathering is to plan to bomb a building. Your rights to free speech on this very forum are limited. If you post porn, you will be banned. You made a choice to participate.

All fundamental rights are INHERENTLY limited by you agreeing to join society. In the wild, if you choose not to participate in society they would be unlimited. The fact that you made a post on an Internet forum run by a commercial company demonstrates that you voided those unlimited rights in order to have this conversation.

As for further radicalization - I am losing hope that those opposing masks and vaccines are open to reason. They are demonstrating an amazing amount of selfishness- it makes more sense to appeal to their interest in not being excluded and exposed. When was the last time you convinced a flat Earther that the world is round? The anti-science crowd including the anti-vaxxers usually do not change their views because someone presented a reasonable and logical argument. The data is overwhelming on that point. They change when the people they most respect convince them and when they are forced to change either by getting sick themselves or because of consequences forced on them by others.

As an employer, the EEOC just ruled I can require all staff to be vaccinated. I am rolling that policy out next week (with medical exceptions for the 1/10th of 1% of the population who can’t get vaccinated.) Staff can choose not to get vaccinated. That choice has consequences. The safety of those we interact with is more important than ignorant anti-science prejudices a person may hold.

Because of the EEOC ruling, I am hopeful that the same principle is expanded to all large group gatherings. It does mean TD can require it of all staff and volunteers (and should.) Universities can require vaccination now - hopefully we can pressure everyone to get there so the body count can stop.

Fred
What do we want? Evidence based science! When do we want it? After peer review!

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Last edit: by Fred K.

Vaccine and masking debate, trying to shift this off the gencon update thread 5 months 1 week ago #29

Mike Steele wrote:

jpotter wrote:

Picc wrote:
I dont think I have the right to tell anyone else what to do, even if I think getting the vaccine is a really really good idea.

Rights dont ever "end". If they do, IMO, they are not rights.


Neither you nor anyone else has a right to endanger me or my family. If you believe that you do, I'd like to hear your thoughts on laws in general. Do you feel that they are infringing on your right to shoot others? Do you feel they are infringing on your right to drive down the opposite side of the street and hit people who are following the rules?

Do you feel that restaurants and supermarkets should be free to serve people rotten food? How about laws for cleanliness? Do all of these infringe upon the rights of the people working there?

This is not false equivalency. Not wearing a mask or getting the vaccine will result in preventable deaths. If you feel you have a right to do those things, I assume you feel the right to ignore all laws made to protect others?

JACKOFTRADZE wrote: Whatever happened to my body, my choice?

They have been wrong about everything from the get go, so why is questioning the entire situation, rushed vaccines and the competency of the people pushing forced compliance being a crackpot? If you feel comfortable getting the vaccine go for it, if you don't that's ok too.


THIS is false equivalency. You do whatever you want with your body. If it endangers the community, however, you need to stop it.

Also who has been wrong about everything from the get-go?

It's not ok for people to not get the vaccine without a valid medical reason, for the myriad of reasons that Fred stated above. Those people's refusal will result in preventable deaths. It may even lead to further outbreaks and vaccines becoming ineffective due to new variants.

Some of you are saying we're all in this together. No we aren't. There are those of us willing to be slightly inconvenienced and to get a shot for the betterment of the community. Then there are a bunch of selfish people who want the rest of us to shoulder the burden, but still want to maintain the benefits of living in our society. Those people aren't in it with us. They've decided they are on nobody's side but their own.


If you and your family are vaccinated, the CDC has said that you're now safe from COVID in small and large crowds. How is someone not being vaccinated endangering your family? They might be endangering their health, but it shouldn't be endangering yours.


A) my kids aren’t yet vaccinated.
B) there is a non-0% chance of unvaccinated kids dying.
C) vaccinated people can still get the virus (although chance of death plummets to 0% (?)). See 2021 Yankees.
D) unvaccinated people know nothing about my health or family situation.
E) unvaccinated people are breeding grounds for mutations
F) I think youre mischaracterizing CDCs guidance.

I have no idea why this social contract has even become an argument in the most educated time in history. Protect thy neighbor, get a shot.

(Not aimed specifically at you mike.)

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Vaccine and masking debate, trying to shift this off the gencon update thread 5 months 1 week ago #30

Serious question for those of you desiring GC to require vaccinations and masks to protect your own health (rather than those desiring it to reduce mutation chances)

You do realize that if you go to GC you'll likely be interacting with people every day that don't have to follow GCs rules, right?

Even if GC requires those things, as long as the city of Indianapolis doesn't require them, you'll still be dealing with random pedestrians passing through the convention center or on the sidewalk, people at your hotel, people at the food trucks, etc.

Are those other interactions not a concern?

(Edit: I realized the intent behind my question wasn't clear. My intent was not saying GC shouldn't require vaccinations/masks because you've got to deal with people that don't follow GC's rules, rather wondering if people are appropriately considering risks even if GC does wind up requiring them)

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Last edit: by Fiddy.

Vaccine and masking debate, trying to shift this off the gencon update thread 5 months 1 week ago #31

This thread and its predecessor have provided a critical, need-to-know piece of data: that there will be a pool of anti-vax people at GenCon, and thus I cannot assume that people not wearing a mask have been vaccinated. This data point is consistent with behavioral data for many other groups, particularly here in the Midwest.

Therefore I will wear my mask at GenCon (and at other public indoor gatherings) whether or not GenCon requires it. I want that extra saving throw in case I roll a 1 on my from-vaccine saving throw.

I will reconsider that stance when the percentage of the population fully vaccinated reaches the level needed to acheive herd immunity (70-85% per Fauci). That percentage for Indiana is currently 31%.

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Vaccine and masking debate, trying to shift this off the gencon update thread 5 months 1 week ago #32

Andy Strassmann wrote: This thread and its predecessor have provided a critical, need-to-know piece of data: that there will be a pool of anti-vax people at GenCon, and thus I cannot assume that people not wearing a mask have been vaccinated. This data point is consistent with behavioral data for many other groups, particularly here in the Midwest.

Therefore I will wear my mask at GenCon (and at other public indoor gatherings) whether or not GenCon requires it. I want that extra saving throw in case I roll a 1 on my from-vaccine saving throw.

I will reconsider that stance when the percentage of the population fully vaccinated reaches the level needed to acheive herd immunity (70-85% per Fauci). That percentage for Indiana is currently 31%.


This is my concern as well. If they say we can go mask free if vaccinated, there will be a non-zero number of people that will just do whatever they want. I don't think we will reach 70% of the US population getting vaccinated as we still haven't gotten the two oldest age groups, 65-74 and 75 and older, to 70% yet. They are both a few points shy of that number and will most likely pass 70% in the next month or so. The US is at 36% fully vaccinated, and we pretty much need to double that.

All that being said, I am vaccinated, attending Gen Con, and will be wearing a mask.

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Vaccine and masking debate, trying to shift this off the gencon update thread 5 months 1 week ago #33

I think the term anti-vaxxer is both unnecessarily pejorative and inaccurate. The vast percentage of people who haven't gotten this vaccine have gotten plenty of other vaccines. They aren't against vaccines in general, they're just not embracing this particular vaccine.

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Vaccine and masking debate, trying to shift this off the gencon update thread 5 months 1 week ago #34

Even if you aren’t a baseball fan, you should pay attention to what just happened with the Yankees. 8 players just tested positive for Covid. All 8 had been vaccinated. 1 even had caught Covid previously and recovered. None got seriously ill because they were vaccinated (and in amazing health - professional athletes and all.)

www.nytimes.com/2021/05/13/sports/baseball/gleyber-torres-yankees-covid.html

It isn’t good news. Breakthrough cases were supposed to be exceedingly rare. These happening means Covid can continue to infect and, more importantly, mutate. Each generation of serious mutations brings us closer to the vaccines not working. As is, you can still catch Covid while vaccinated and get seriously ill. It looks like some people have died from breakthrough cases. That data should start being reported next week.

I saw the article and it just took the wind out of my sails about going to GenCon. I went from 90% likely to go and stay masked (fully vaccinated with Pfizer) to maybe 50/50. If we get the Indian variant here, that drops to maybe 20%.

Fred
What do we want? Evidence based science! When do we want it? After peer review!

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Last edit: by Fred K.

Vaccine and masking debate, trying to shift this off the gencon update thread 5 months 1 week ago #35

Fred K wrote: Even if you aren’t a baseball fan, you should pay attention to what just happened with the Yankees. 8 players just tested positive for Covid. All 8 had been vaccinated. 1 even had caught Covid previously and recovered. None got seriously ill because they were vaccinated (and in amazing health - professional athletes and all.)

www.nytimes.com/2021/05/13/sports/baseball/gleyber-torres-yankees-covid.html

It isn’t good news. Breakthrough cases were supposed to be exceedingly rare. These happening means Covid can continue to infect and, more importantly, mutate. Each generation of serious mutations brings us closer to the vaccines not working. As is, you can still catch Covid while vaccinated and get seriously ill. It looks like some people have died from breakthrough cases. That data should start being reported next week.

I saw the article and it just took the wind out of my sails about going to GenCon. I went from 90% likely to go and stay masked (fully vaccinated with Pfizer) to maybe 50/50. If we get the Indian variant here, that drops to maybe 20%.

Fred


I believe it was only one player that contracted Covid, but this is still an example of vaccinated people contracting, and most likely spreading, the virus. I was okay with how things were going until the CDC came out and said vaccinated people are fine indoors without masks. People are just going to lie and say they got the shot/s and go unmasked, creating more chances for transmission. We will see variants in the US between now and September, so I am hoping Gen Con sticks with the mask requirement.

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Vaccine and masking debate, trying to shift this off the gencon update thread 5 months 1 week ago #36

Before making this statement please understand I am getting my second vaccine shot Thursday, I am pro vaccine, I think you should get it if you don’t have a valid health reason not get it. If you have valid concerns talk to your doctor before making your decision.

I think the sad reality is the reason people don’t get vaccinated is some form of fear or trust.

Most of the people I have talked to that say they are not going to get the vaccine express fear of the quick time it was pushed through, lack of understanding of long term effects of the vaccine, and a bunch of true new stories showing bad outcomes including death.

Now I do understand all vaccines and pharmaceuticals have potential negative effects, and I am very good with statistics so I understand that the risk of death from getting a vaccine is on a order of magnitude smaller that death from COVID regardless of your age and health.

I think part of the problem is the trolley car dilemma. People feel like if they take a vaccine and they die it was there fault because they chose to get the vaccine. Rather than realizing that there odds are way better of serving if they get the vaccine.

Johnson was taken off the market for a short amount of time because 6 people out of 6.7 million people at the time got clots, 1 of the 6 had died and another was in critical condition. That said the odds when not adjusting for demographics of death from covid is about 1.6 per thousand people. So the risk of vaccine death is way lower than covid its self.

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