TOPIC: Nothing to Prove - Geek Girls

The problem with trek to wars comparisons is its just not apples to apples. If we take everything said in both shows as cannon their technology is just to different. The big problem is Lucas just did what looked good so when you work out numbers you get crazy high levels compared to trek which was based more on existing science. While the tech in Starwars looks clunky in a lot of cases the crazy levels of energy they generate means they win in almost every category. The one thing the federation has going for them is transporters which would do little good against a high power deflector but might lead to a cool gorilla war after the fact. Still at that point jedi and droid armies.

Anyway these guys have already put more thought into it then I ever will www.st-v-sw.net/

Not to get into this debate, but from Next Gen on (I don't know about ToS), Federation shields are pretty much immune to focused light weapons/lasers, which is what Star Wars uses. I imagine that the sheer volume of turbolaser batteries on a Super Star Destroyer might cause some chipping damage on the Enterprise D/E, but not enough to win.

Druegar wrote: Great video, thank you for sharing it!

Deaterrae wrote: With great respect for all geeks and gamers, no matter their gender, age, race, class, ethnicity, history, ability, knowledge, or dice-rolling skill,

Speaking for myself, I would add sexual orientation in that list. I may not have ever had my geek cred dismissed because of my "equipment", but I know what it's like to be demeaned by gamers for the way I use it.

I knew I'd forgotten something from my list. That one's important to me, too! So, consider it updated, as seen above. Thanks for pointing it out to me.

The real problem with comparing Star Wars and Star Trek is that even while some people may wrongly believe so, Star Wars is not science fiction. Just like others have pointed out, it's not really based in science and so to compare it to anything else becomes ridiculous. It's like when you were playing swords as a kid and the other kid claims his sword can cut through anything that he auto-wins. I think I read somewhere that the star wars light speed allows you to cross the length of the universe in a couple weeks. Compare that to star trek where just to cross 1 quadrant of 1 tiny galaxy would take 80 years. The same goes for the batshit amount of power that everything in star wars generates. The amount of energy going through a light saber could probably power this entire planet, that's how over the top some of the energy calculations have been. In the end, Star Wars is really a Space Opera and more fantasy than scifi. It becomes like asking how a wizard's magic missile works. There's no explanation, it just does. Meanwhile Star Trek would provide you with intricate schematics and probably something involving the heinsenberg compensators.

All of that said, I still feel in my heart of hearts the enterprise could kick george lucas's ass.

If you really want good (or at least far better) space physics, babylon 5 is the place to be. Skin Dancing FTW.

We all know that the ultimate source of power in the universe is Protoculture.

henwy wrote: If you really want good (or at least far better) space physics, babylon 5 is the place to be. Skin Dancing FTW.

The first space battle I watched in Babylon 5 I saw a Star Fury fighter use attitude jets to flip and keep going the same direction BACKWARDS! I actually shouted out, "OMG! Someone finally gets it right!" The Star Fury then proceeded to annihilate the fighter that was following it with its front guns.

Lots of people just don't understand that ships in space do not act like planes. If a ship is going at warp 7 and flips 180 degrees it is still going to be going at warp 7 in the same direction it was going in the first place. It will now just be doing it backwards.

So, I noticed something in this thread I started - it's about feminism and gaming, but very quickly, it turned into a discussion about Star Wars versus Star Trek and technology in science fiction/fantasy.

I want to point out that this shift (which has happened in other be-nice-to-everyone and feminist threads I've posted) in the discussion occurs because the original topic is uncomfortable and a little bit threatening. So, it is dismissed and trivialized by changing the topic.

And I'm calling you on it. Sorry. It just needs to be done.

If gamer girls asserting that they don't need to prove their geek cred in order to be geeks makes you uncomfortable, good. Sit with that. Notice it. Consider it. Reflect on your reaction. Why? Are you uncomfortable because you've questioned women being in gaming? Are you uncomfortable because you've seen this happen but didn't speak up? Are you uncomfortable because this is the first you've heard of it and you're amazed you hadn't noticed when you really thought that women gamers are treated with respect and dignity because you've always been nice to women in your gaming circle?

But, please don't trivialize it. Don't just change the topic. Please. Doing so continues to disregard the presence of women in gaming.

I'm going to leave you with words from John Walker of Rock, Paper, Shotgun :

"In having written about the subject of women and games over the years, I’ve received a significant amount of abuse. (I’m not going to fret about saying, “But of course not as bad as…”, because of course it’s not as bad as…) Most of the abuse I receive is lazy insults, and until recently I tended to assume them fairly innocuous. Some has been extreme, such as forum threads dedicated to associating my name with acts of child molestation to skew Google results, personal threats, and deeply personal insults. All of it has one purpose: to intimidate. Whether the purpose of the intimidation is because the person wants to read about new screenshots for a game and not gender politics, or because they are violently defending their privilege, it’s always about intimidation.

It can fit into a variety of categories, but there’s always just that one intent. While a lot has been extreme, the majority just want the discussion to go away, and angrily tell me why I need to stop talking about it. And indeed the vast majority of the non-hostile communication takes the form of, “I just wish you’d stop talking about this.” But the thing is, that’s not okay, either.

Anita Sarkeesian, in her GDC talk “Equality, Or GTFO”, quoted a perfect metaphor for this, quoting Beverly Daniel Tatum’s moving walkway (those horizontal travelators you see at airports) idea from Why Are All The Black Kids Sitting Together In The Cafeteria?. The gaming industry and those who write about it, she says, are stood on this moving walkway, always trundling toward the sexism and misogyny that infests throughout. There are of course those who march forward toward it, embracing it. But most, she says, are standing still. They don’t particularly desire or support it, but they also don’t want to think about it, discuss it, contest it. So they stand still, and in doing so, inexorably glide toward it.

The only way to make a difference, Sarkeesian argued, is to turn around and actively walk against the flow of the travelator. Something which is, it occurs to me, not easy. Not only are you walking against the flow of movement, but you’re also going to bump into everyone heading in the other direction. And some people are going to be hostile about this, especially if they think you might start a trend, start seeing others change direction, maybe even enough to see the direction of that walkway changed. The voluminous responses of wanting to talk about something else is a combined effort to stand still on that walkway, and that’s not something we’re willing to do."

Thanks for reading this far.


PS - I have often been discouraged and saddened by recognizing the sexism and misogyny in gaming of all types, including at GenCon. My posting this here is not a direct critique of TD (although TD taking a critical look at any ways in which it might be perpetuating sexism in gaming wouldn't be a terrible thing) but comes out of my wanting to bring awareness to gamers around me. That moving walkway exists in RPGs, too, not just in video games. You don't realize that you're on it until someone walks the other direction, pointing it out. My hope is that I might help open a few more eyes to the fact that we're moving and have been for decades. Do you want to be where it's heading? Are you willing to walk the other direction with me?

Deaterrae wrote:
And I'm calling you on it. Sorry. It just needs to be done.

If gamer girls asserting that they don't need to prove their geek cred in order to be geeks makes you uncomfortable, good. Sit with that. Notice it. Consider it. Reflect on your reaction. Why? Are you uncomfortable because you've questioned women being in gaming? Are you uncomfortable because you've seen this happen but didn't speak up? Are you uncomfortable because this is the first you've heard of it and you're amazed you hadn't noticed when you really thought that women gamers are treated with respect and dignity because you've always been nice to women in your gaming circle?

But, please don't trivialize it. Don't just change the topic. Please. Doing so continues to disregard the presence of women in gaming. (i.e. - You disrespected me and my experience.)
/quote]


see this is what is wrong with society. The topic went on a tangent so you make the assumption that it is disrespecting you. That is false. It disrespects you , because you want to think that way.
In actuality, the thread went on a tangent and kept going (this happens alot in the forums)
That actually made me mad that you would think that. You are making a big deal out of nothing.
when i went on the tangent on spaceballs and not star wars/trek, I wasnt disrespecting you..i was disrespecting the whole star wars/trek conversation

I was really glad you brought girls in gaming to the forum to malke people aware, the last post (to me) just made your first post meaningless

I can understand why Deaterrae is upset by the thread hijacking. She brought up an important, sensitive topic, and the discussion very quickly turned away to something more frivolous. I don't think any disrespect was meant - it's more a symptom of being easily distracted, I think.

Thanks for bringing up this topic, Deaterrae.

Bleep it. If guys have to pass a litmus test with me then women do too. No one gets a flipping free pass just because they claim to be something. If someone tells me they're a star trek fanatic and I start bringing up favorite episodes and they have a blank look, I'm going to question their cred. I've been actually meeting a lot of new gamers lately having just gotten involved in pathfinder games in the area so in the past 2 weeks I've probably gamed with around 30 new people I've never met before. The conversation almost always starts the same way regardless of if the person is male or female. We talk about how long we've been gaming, what rpg systems, and which ones we preferred. It establishes a frame of reference. If you talk the talk, you better know what thac0 is.

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote:

Deaterrae wrote: see this is what is wrong with society. The topic went on a tangent so you make the assumption that it is disrespecting you. That is false. It disrespects you , because you want to think that way.
In actuality, the thread went on a tangent and kept going (this happens alot in the forums)
That actually made me mad that you would think that. You are making a big deal out of nothing.
when i went on the tangent on spaceballs and not star wars/trek, I wasnt disrespecting you..i was disrespecting the whole star wars/trek conversation

I was really glad you brought girls in gaming to the forum to malke people aware, the last post (to me) just made your first post meaningless

It's not completely unusual. I've run across it in many other forums, though less lately then in years past. SOme people just feel that once they start a thread they own it.

BTW, a personal pet peeve is when people claim that you don't like something or avoid something because you're 'afraid' of it or it makes you uncomfortable. It's just lazy and often times a ridiculous argument to make. About the only way it could be worse if maybe they slap a name on it and then try to get everyone else to adopt it as canon.

I'm genuinely uncertain what to say here. This did deviate into a mass of nonsense, but I don't think it was an intentional derail, but hey, I derail easily. So here's my fairly serious reply to the above posts.

Part of my dislike for this topic is the terms in which it is stated, like the word respect. For me, respect is something I choose to give those who have earned my esteem, I don't in general accord respect to people I've just met. I do however try to treat people with courtesy as a matter of course.

I don't consider myself a misogynist , but I am something of a misanthrope, I tend to think the worst of people in general, and distance myself from socially engaging circumstances outside of a small circle of friends.

You stated in your thread :

Deaterrae wrote:
With great respect for all geeks and gamers, no matter their gender, sexual orientation, age, race, class, ethnicity, history, ability, knowledge, or dice-rolling skill,

A Feminist Gamer

With great respect for (courtesy to) all geeks and gamers, no matter their gender, sexual orientation, age, race, class, ethnicity, history...

That part I can agree with, I play with a fairly diverse group. For the rest I react differently. My tendency is to be a competitive gamer, so ability and knowledge matter to me in games. Obviously I don't mean that I get bent out of shape when a beginner has problems, but I do get annoyed with a player who just is bad.

I had a partner for a doubles CCG tournament last year because I agreed to fill someones place. He was just genuinely bad, he was in a relatively high level all day event, and he made so many play errors that judges were called on we ended the day at round four due to excessive warnings.

Dice rolling ability , if you mean general skill, see above, if you mean bad luck, I tend to believe the odds all balance out, some days your hot with the dice or can't draw wrong from the top of the deck and sometimes its all 1's and mulligans. I try not to tilt at bad runs of luck, and I don't generally tweak on others for same.

Please don't just assume I'm being a jerk, this isn't a post trying to defend anything, or attack a viewpoint, I'm not trying to sway anybodies feelings, just the above post seemed irritated that people weren't thinking about the content of the OP, and here are my thoughts on it.