TOPIC: 2026 Ultra Rare Tokens <= Almost Ready for the Printer!

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Thanks, Jeff!

It's still concerning that if you have the accursed set, the UR Belt of the Accursed is identical to the Relic Girdle of Frost Giant Strength. That's a lot of power creep and a full two points better than the Girdle of Hill Giant Strength. I recommend dropping it to +4 ST, at that it would still be the best UR Strength Waist token.

If you're going to count the set bonus effect against the individual tokens, the Ultra Rare Girdle of Might grants +4 to STR and +1 to saves for Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, Fighters, Monk, and Paladin (along with a ton of other stuff), as the Might set +1 level bonus comes with +2 STR for those classes.

If Girdle of Might is fine to add +1 level, +2 STR, and +1 saves when evaluating the effect of an item and its set bonus as if those were the only considerations, this token is surely fine to add +5 STR.

Even without the set bonus, +5 ST and -2 Wis is overpowered, far better than any other UR belt. +4 ST -2 WIS would be more comparable with existing UR belts. It would be more of a choice than an obvious upgrade.

There's a +4 STR, -1 Reflex UR belt already.

So +5 STR, -2 will (which is a more valuable save than Reflex) is not obviously more powerful than that. In fact, it's worse if your final strength ends up odd.

It's not "far better" than any other UR belt. Slapping +1 STR, +1 Reflex, -2 Will onto any random token does not make it "far better."

Matthew, I don't see a +4 STR, -1 Reflex UR belt in TokenDB. Are you referring to the Girdle of Stone Giant Strength? That is +4 St and -1 Dex, which is pretty comparable to the Girdle of Hill Giant St by adding a point of Strength and subtracting a point of Dex. I just think it's a mistake to get to a Relic level St bonus of +5, even with the -2 Will saves disadvantage. I understand if we have to agree to disagree on that.

I would be ok with downgrading the strength belt as along as there is a 2026 transmute for a relic strength belt. Get rid of the transmute path for the crossbow to make room.

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Thanks, Jeff!

It's still concerning that if you have the accursed set, the UR Belt of the Accursed is identical to the Relic Girdle of Frost Giant Strength. That's a lot of power creep and a full two points better than the Girdle of Hill Giant Strength. I recommend dropping it to +4 ST, at that it would still be the best UR Strength Waist token.

If you're going to count the set bonus effect against the individual tokens, the Ultra Rare Girdle of Might grants +4 to STR and +1 to saves for Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, Fighters, Monk, and Paladin (along with a ton of other stuff), as the Might set +1 level bonus comes with +2 STR for those classes.

If Girdle of Might is fine to add +1 level, +2 STR, and +1 saves when evaluating the effect of an item and its set bonus as if those were the only considerations, this token is surely fine to add +5 STR.

Even without the set bonus, +5 ST and -2 Wis is overpowered, far better than any other UR belt. +4 ST -2 WIS would be more comparable with existing UR belts. It would be more of a choice than an obvious upgrade.

There's a +4 STR, -1 Reflex UR belt already.

So +5 STR, -2 will (which is a more valuable save than Reflex) is not obviously more powerful than that. In fact, it's worse if your final strength ends up odd.

It's not "far better" than any other UR belt. Slapping +1 STR, +1 Reflex, -2 Will onto any random token does not make it "far better."

Matthew, I don't see a +4 STR, -1 Reflex UR belt in TokenDB. Are you referring to the Girdle of Stone Giant Strength? That is +4 St and -1 Dex, which is pretty comparable to the Girdle of Hill Giant St by adding a point of Strength and subtracting a point of Dex. I just think it's a mistake to get to a Relic level St bonus of +5, even with the -2 Will saves disadvantage. I understand if we have to agree to disagree on that.

Yeah - I forgot what Girdle of Stone Giant Strength did and then I deleted my post once I realized my mistake, but I guess I wasn't fast enough to intercept your response.

Sorry for the confusion.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Thanks, Jeff!

It's still concerning that if you have the accursed set, the UR Belt of the Accursed is identical to the Relic Girdle of Frost Giant Strength. That's a lot of power creep and a full two points better than the Girdle of Hill Giant Strength. I recommend dropping it to +4 ST, at that it would still be the best UR Strength Waist token.

If you're going to count the set bonus effect against the individual tokens, the Ultra Rare Girdle of Might grants +4 to STR and +1 to saves for Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, Fighters, Monk, and Paladin (along with a ton of other stuff), as the Might set +1 level bonus comes with +2 STR for those classes.

If Girdle of Might is fine to add +1 level, +2 STR, and +1 saves when evaluating the effect of an item and its set bonus as if those were the only considerations, this token is surely fine to add +5 STR.

Even without the set bonus, +5 ST and -2 Wis is overpowered, far better than any other UR belt. +4 ST -2 WIS would be more comparable with existing UR belts. It would be more of a choice than an obvious upgrade.

There's a +4 STR, -1 Reflex UR belt already.

So +5 STR, -2 will (which is a more valuable save than Reflex) is not obviously more powerful than that. In fact, it's worse if your final strength ends up odd.

It's not "far better" than any other UR belt. Slapping +1 STR, +1 Reflex, -2 Will onto any random token does not make it "far better."

Matthew, I don't see a +4 STR, -1 Reflex UR belt in TokenDB. Are you referring to the Girdle of Stone Giant Strength? That is +4 St and -1 Dex, which is pretty comparable to the Girdle of Hill Giant St by adding a point of Strength and subtracting a point of Dex. I just think it's a mistake to get to a Relic level St bonus of +5, even with the -2 Will saves disadvantage. I understand if we have to agree to disagree on that.

Yeah - I forgot what Girdle of Stone Giant Strength did and then I deleted my post once I realized my mistake, but I guess I wasn't fast enough to intercept your response.

Sorry for the confusion.

No worries, Matthew, it's impossible to keep track of all the tokens. You have much more detailed token knowledge than most.

A Strength belt transmute path would be very attractive to numerous folks since the last time was 14 years.

edwin wrote: A Strength belt transmute path would be very attractive to numerous folks since the last time was 14 years.

If it's a pure Strength belt transmute, wouldn't it be a reprint of the Girdle of Frost Giant Strength, or are you thinking of something else? There are Frost Giant Girdles available in the secondary market at sub-$200 prices currently, so a reprint of that wouldn't make much sense right now.

Relics are not needed below nightmare DR. So you are looking at more experience players in the game for a number of years that would want to or has enough to do a relic transmute. To support TD you would prefer to go through TD for the transmute and Jeff has committed to not reprint relics.

So you need to make it worth while.


Something along the lines of + 5 strength, + 2 all saves and drink a potion as free action once per run would be closer inline with the cost of the tokens to needed to transmute (over $300 dollars). Two UR cost around $120-$150. Plus the trade goods and $50 or os in gold.

The current 2026 ioun stone transmute is a combination current relic power (+1) or UR power (+2 saves) and rare power (+ 1 saves).

The strength belt would be a historical relic power (+5 strength) from 14 years earlier and UR power (+2 saves, although worst than Mystic Orb) and rare power (drink potion as free action)

edwin wrote: Relics are not needed below nightmare DR. So you are looking at more experience players in the game for a number of years that would want to or has enough to do a relic transmute. To support TD you would prefer to go through TD for the transmute and Jeff has committed to not reprint relics.

So you need to make it worth while.


Something along the lines of + 5 strength, + 2 all saves and drink a potion as free action once per run would be closer inline with the cost of the tokens to needed to transmute (over $300 dollars). Two UR cost around $120-$150. Plus the trade goods and $50 or os in gold.

I think saying Jeff committed to never reprinting Relics is a bit too strong. Nearly 8 years ago, Jeff posted this:

"I have no plans to do a complete reprint of any Relic, but we might eventually get around to making something that is sort of like an old one...so instead of a Ring that is +4 to saves, it might be +2 saves and +6 hit points.

Thanks for your input on all this. "

Just because Jeff didn't have plans to do a reprint nearly 8 years ago, doesn't mean he can't develop plans to do Relic reprints now. I think there is plenty of wiggle room there for Jeff to change his mind.

Here's a link to the link to the thread. truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=527&id=245417

Jeff created omni tokens for recipes but did not address relic transmutes which expire.

edwin wrote: ....
So you need to make it worth while.
...

This thinking leads to creep / over powered tokens.

Worth while doesn't have to mean lots and lots of upgrades over the prior level of rarity. a Relic having +2 str over a UR is fine and worth while. A relic removing a Save penalty (redoubt items) is fine and worth while. If an item is a little better than the prior level, people will upgrade. The only difference between making small steps or big leaps is having a harder time balancing the dungeon combats due to stat disparity between rarity levels.

That is already happening with several tokens each year. Worth while are the greaves transmute, manual, earcuff transmute, path, mark, etc.

If you do not make things worth while then there is no reason to get/support.

If things are too difficult then people leave. Safehold cost were increased and now you have folks already worried about being able to find a group to do mythic.

edwin wrote: That is already happening with several tokens each year. Worth while are the greaves transmute, manual, earcuff transmute, path, mark, etc.

If you do not make things worth while then there is no reason to get/support.

If things are too difficult then people leave. Safehold cost were increased and now you have folks already worried about being able to find a group to do mythic.

Again, you have to define worthwhile, and I think what a lot of people call "worthwhile" is just a synonym for creep. Once you have a UR in a slot, you shouldn't ever need to buy another that does the same thing - you should need to go up to Relic to get a pure upgrade. For example, we shouldn't see 6 STR UR gloves because Mithral Gauntlets and DK Gauntlets exist. but a relic with 6 STR would be fine. Now, that said, it's totally OK to have Gauntlets of Divine Guidance at UR, as they do something different.

Continuing the comparison, the Gauntlets of Divine Guidance are just pure creep over Gloves of Weapon Finesse and shouldn't have been printed the way they ended up. Token development failed to address the creep there - As I recall, earlier versions of Gauntlets of Divine Guidance had been +2 hit and Split healing, or +2 hit and +2 healing. Both of those would have been different than existing options at UR, but not superior.