TOPIC: 2026 Transmuted Tokens

Another consideration for the Greaves is that as a multi-year transmute it should pretty much be a best on slot token until a Legendary Greaves comes out. At just +2 DR, I would expect that it would get eclipsed by a Relic or even a UR in the near future. I hope that it's bumped up to at least +3 DR.

I'm curious for people who want the greaves changed:

Is it important to you that they work against puzzle damage?

Or is something else (like wanting just a higher DR effect) the main issue.

I ask because a lot of the proposals I see for changes would bring Puzzle damage into the stuff prevented by the greaves, but I don't see people explicitly saying "These should protect against puzzle damage."

Matthew Hayward wrote: I'm curious for people who want the greaves changed:

Is it important to you that they work against puzzle damage?

Or is something else (like wanting just a higher DR effect) the main issue.

I ask because a lot of the proposals I see for changes would bring Puzzle damage into the stuff prevented by the greaves, but I don't see people explicitly saying "These should protect against puzzle damage."

If the puzzle damage is eldrich it won't make a difference what the greaves do; eldrich damage can't be reduced. That said, some non combat damage has been typed and prevented by greaves of absorption (ex: acid gas in Jan), so ideally the arcanum greaves cover those scenarios.

I also think that "-2 from everything but push and eldrich" is explicit and easily understood. It may not make much difference in overall damage reduced over a year if most puzzle damage is eldrich, but clear and concise is a big win in my book.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Impy wrote:
Ten Saints Cloak + Vello's
In isolation I think this is fine, this is a very fun item if 1 party member were to equip it. A silly fun gamble leading to exciting memories. However I think this token breaks down if the entire party equips it, at a moderate nightmare level we can assume the party will have around 50HP+ each. Meaning that this token heals the party on average 250HP a game at least in the level of difficulty we'd normally see it.

This analysis seems wrong to me. For 10x of St. Vello's Cloak to generate ~250 healing in a party of ~50HP players, each of the 10 players would have to die (and 5 would remain dead). That doesn't seem like a common scenario.

From a meta perspective you can choose to not heal and attempt to gamble and the odds are on your side for it. It de-prioritizes healing. Whether or not players will does not remove a meta game analysis that they certainly can to a considerable effect. Why heal before the final room at all if we can just gamble and use some potions?

Is this going to be a common scenario? I cannot say but I don't like the possibility of it existing.

Endgame wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I'm curious for people who want the greaves changed:

Is it important to you that they work against puzzle damage?

Or is something else (like wanting just a higher DR effect) the main issue.

I ask because a lot of the proposals I see for changes would bring Puzzle damage into the stuff prevented by the greaves, but I don't see people explicitly saying "These should protect against puzzle damage."

If the puzzle damage is eldrich it won't make a difference what the greaves do; eldrich damage can't be reduced. That said, some non combat damage has been typed and prevented by greaves of absorption (ex: acid gas in Jan), so ideally the arcanum greaves cover those scenarios.

I also think that "-2 from everything but push and eldrich" is explicit and easily understood. It may not make much difference in overall damage reduced over a year if most puzzle damage is eldrich, but clear and concise is a big win in my book.

Are people then not going to be mad that "puzzle damage is switched to edritch to subvert these puzzle-damage preventing greaves I got"?

Jeff Martin wrote:
Oh, and see you if can find the one I named to make fun of myself. The first to post will win a Dream Date with Henwy.

I'm curious to learn the answer here.

I've thought about it far too long and can't spot anything.

Matthew Hayward wrote: I'm curious for people who want the greaves changed:

Is it important to you that they work against puzzle damage?

Or is something else (like wanting just a higher DR effect) the main issue.

I ask because a lot of the proposals I see for changes would bring Puzzle damage into the stuff prevented by the greaves, but I don't see people explicitly saying "These should protect against puzzle damage."

I'd be onboard with +3 or +4 DR, against everything except Push and Eldritch damage. If a Puzzle Damage is something other than Eldritch, it seems like it was designed to be applicable for reducing.

Impy wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Impy wrote:
Ten Saints Cloak + Vello's
In isolation I think this is fine, this is a very fun item if 1 party member were to equip it. A silly fun gamble leading to exciting memories. However I think this token breaks down if the entire party equips it, at a moderate nightmare level we can assume the party will have around 50HP+ each. Meaning that this token heals the party on average 250HP a game at least in the level of difficulty we'd normally see it.

This analysis seems wrong to me. For 10x of St. Vello's Cloak to generate ~250 healing in a party of ~50HP players, each of the 10 players would have to die (and 5 would remain dead). That doesn't seem like a common scenario.

From a meta perspective you can choose to not heal and attempt to gamble and the odds are on your side for it. It de-prioritizes healing. Whether or not players will does not remove a meta game analysis that they certainly can to a considerable effect. Why heal before the final room at all if we can just gamble and use some potions?

Is this going to be a common scenario? I cannot say but I don't like the possibility of it existing.

I think we have to just agree to disagree.

The scenario you're describing, where players have to consider their options, and make choices about whether to gamble or play it safe.... sounds fun to me?

I'd also note many players will want to not die for intrinsic reasons, and I think the risks here are perhaps more risky than you're making them out to be.

A. Having a bunch of downed players may make it difficult to defeat a monster in time (let alone be unenjoyable for the downed payers) - and if you don't defeat the monster in time you also won't have time to raise downed party members with Potions and they'll be permanently dead.

B. If a party leaves a combat in room 2 back slapping each other about how clever they are to gamble on their cloaks and enter the next room between 1 and 5 HP they risk a TPK when they attempt an incorrect puzzle solution in that room (where the Cloak can't help them).

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I'm curious for people who want the greaves changed:

Is it important to you that they work against puzzle damage?

Or is something else (like wanting just a higher DR effect) the main issue.

I ask because a lot of the proposals I see for changes would bring Puzzle damage into the stuff prevented by the greaves, but I don't see people explicitly saying "These should protect against puzzle damage."

If the puzzle damage is eldrich it won't make a difference what the greaves do; eldrich damage can't be reduced. That said, some non combat damage has been typed and prevented by greaves of absorption (ex: acid gas in Jan), so ideally the arcanum greaves cover those scenarios.

I also think that "-2 from everything but push and eldrich" is explicit and easily understood. It may not make much difference in overall damage reduced over a year if most puzzle damage is eldrich, but clear and concise is a big win in my book.

Are people then not going to be mad that "puzzle damage is switched to edritch to subvert these puzzle-damage preventing greaves I got"?

I wouldn't be, as I already expect puzzle damage to usually be non-preventable.

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I'm curious for people who want the greaves changed:

Is it important to you that they work against puzzle damage?

Or is something else (like wanting just a higher DR effect) the main issue.

I ask because a lot of the proposals I see for changes would bring Puzzle damage into the stuff prevented by the greaves, but I don't see people explicitly saying "These should protect against puzzle damage."

I'd be onboard with +3 or +4 DR, against everything except Push and Eldritch damage. If a Puzzle Damage is something other than Eldritch, it seems like it was designed to be applicable for reducing.

What if they said:

-X damage except for Push, Puzzle, and Eldritch

?

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I'm curious for people who want the greaves changed:

Is it important to you that they work against puzzle damage?

Or is something else (like wanting just a higher DR effect) the main issue.

I ask because a lot of the proposals I see for changes would bring Puzzle damage into the stuff prevented by the greaves, but I don't see people explicitly saying "These should protect against puzzle damage."

If the puzzle damage is eldrich it won't make a difference what the greaves do; eldrich damage can't be reduced. That said, some non combat damage has been typed and prevented by greaves of absorption (ex: acid gas in Jan), so ideally the arcanum greaves cover those scenarios.

I also think that "-2 from everything but push and eldrich" is explicit and easily understood. It may not make much difference in overall damage reduced over a year if most puzzle damage is eldrich, but clear and concise is a big win in my book.

Are people then not going to be mad that "puzzle damage is switched to edritch to subvert these puzzle-damage preventing greaves I got"?

As I understand it from this post from a DM here, and on discord:
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=55&id=258389&start=24#464268

Puzzle damage is usually, though not always, Eldrich damage currently. People aren't going to be made that puzzle damage switched to eldrich because it usually already is Eldrich damage.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I'm curious for people who want the greaves changed:

Is it important to you that they work against puzzle damage?

Or is something else (like wanting just a higher DR effect) the main issue.

I ask because a lot of the proposals I see for changes would bring Puzzle damage into the stuff prevented by the greaves, but I don't see people explicitly saying "These should protect against puzzle damage."

I'd be onboard with +3 or +4 DR, against everything except Push and Eldritch damage. If a Puzzle Damage is something other than Eldritch, it seems like it was designed to be applicable for reducing.

What if they said:

-X damage except for Push, Puzzle, and Eldritch

?

My preference is -3 or -4 damage except for Push and Eldritch. As I said, if a puzzle isn't eldritch damage it is designed to allow prevention/reduction.