TOPIC: Safehold I and Mythic Token Ideas => Part Two

The main direction of this is neither right nor wrong, but it distinctly is not for me.

I personally do not find this iteration of mythic difficulty interesting, as appears to be a linear progression with baked in hard checks on tokens. I understand checks like these were popular in 2nd Edition and backwards for DnD. I've fought my liches before, but I personally don't find it fun.

I want my powers and decisions to expand when I progress further, it's why I found a lot of joy leveling up into nightmare. I enjoy trying to fight things outside of my power level from a stat perspective but making it though from clever and silly play.

Additionally, as a not hard core collector mindset person, seeing just a longer pricier crafting chain isn't for me as well. I'd rather see community focus craft systems and them made from materials that could only be acquired through play rather than normal purchases. But again, I'm not the person who gets excited about crafting chains for TD as they don't feel like something I can do from just playing beyond relic.

I am happy to see there is no hard limit to try mythic and I'm excited to see some mechanics being thought about it. These are great steps. I'll try to toss my ideas off what mythic could be in a doc this weekend if you're still looking to gather ideas for it

Picc wrote:

Mongo wrote: I hate to say it but this prices my family out of ever playing Mythic…. Getting to safehold 1 and then getting the three mythic tokens to get around their mythic ability is just to costly for me to make a set for each of us in my family that plays.

I regret starting to make 5 sets of the safehold tokens down to safehold three due to the price being increased from what my expectations were, and the cost of mythic tokens added on top of this is just too much money.

I think Jeff listened to people who have no dog in this fight… people who will never make mythic themselves but encouraged pricing everyone else out of the market.

I think Jeff has forgotten who the intended audience is… people who have no intention of ever playing mythic being too vocal… but having these uber expensive tokens that will never sell for the cost of making them (no way to recoup one’s investment) is just too much to have tied up in a game, no matter how fun and enjoyable it may be.

I will still make one set for myself, but I just can’t justify making the other 4 I need for my entire family’s to play mythic… let alone getting them the three mythic tokens to circumvent the damage.

Hopefully mythic level is harder even if the party is equipping the 3 tokens else why play? Epic is fun as it is, and if Mythic ends up being just as hard as Epic if the party has the 3 tokens defeats the purpose of having Mythic other than bragging rights… but this ends up just being class warfare, “Pay to Play” mythic, only the rich can afford the tokens to play.

No, I am not “rage quitting”, but stating that my family can’t do this… and we were hoping to do so. I will have to play solo when doing mythic without my kids, and they will be very disappointed.

Legit question, how would you price a typical mythic. I can't imagine you're to far out of the target demographic, and to be honest while I don't know what goes on behind the curtain if your feeling priced out it's probably to expensive to actually get a viably consistent player base going.

He's not priced out. He's priced out of making 5 sets. I love Mongo but have a bit of difficulty sympathizing with someone getting down on the cost because they can't make 5 sets. I don't think Jeff is looking at setting the cost based on people making multiples of these. Someone may have 10 CoA but I wouldn't expect anyone to have 10 Coins of Wealth, etc.

Rob F wrote:

Picc wrote:

Mongo wrote: I hate to say it but this prices my family out of ever playing Mythic…. Getting to safehold 1 and then getting the three mythic tokens to get around their mythic ability is just to costly for me to make a set for each of us in my family that plays.

I regret starting to make 5 sets of the safehold tokens down to safehold three due to the price being increased from what my expectations were, and the cost of mythic tokens added on top of this is just too much money.

I think Jeff listened to people who have no dog in this fight… people who will never make mythic themselves but encouraged pricing everyone else out of the market.

I think Jeff has forgotten who the intended audience is… people who have no intention of ever playing mythic being too vocal… but having these uber expensive tokens that will never sell for the cost of making them (no way to recoup one’s investment) is just too much to have tied up in a game, no matter how fun and enjoyable it may be.

I will still make one set for myself, but I just can’t justify making the other 4 I need for my entire family’s to play mythic… let alone getting them the three mythic tokens to circumvent the damage.

Hopefully mythic level is harder even if the party is equipping the 3 tokens else why play? Epic is fun as it is, and if Mythic ends up being just as hard as Epic if the party has the 3 tokens defeats the purpose of having Mythic other than bragging rights… but this ends up just being class warfare, “Pay to Play” mythic, only the rich can afford the tokens to play.

No, I am not “rage quitting”, but stating that my family can’t do this… and we were hoping to do so. I will have to play solo when doing mythic without my kids, and they will be very disappointed.

Legit question, how would you price a typical mythic. I can't imagine you're to far out of the target demographic, and to be honest while I don't know what goes on behind the curtain if your feeling priced out it's probably to expensive to actually get a viably consistent player base going.

He's not priced out. He's priced out of making 5 sets. I love Mongo but have a bit of difficulty sympathizing with someone getting down on the cost because they can't make 5 sets. I don't think Jeff is looking at setting the cost based on people making multiples of these. Someone may have 10 CoA but I wouldn't expect anyone to have 10 Coins of Wealth, etc.

Thing is though, if that group is even thinking hard about the cost let alone having trouble mustering mythics for everyone how may people do you think will actually be in the mythic population period. I have no info one way or the other but I assume we would need at least 30+ mythic players to see runs consistently fire and that's going to be a tall order already given there are only 38 people in the safehold registry at all.

I'm sure TDHQ has better numbers but personally I would rather see S rank parties die in the dungeon then get barred from trying by IRL logistics. And again that's not me saying the prices are wrong, just urging caution since we could mess this up rather easily.


For full disclosure on my personal perspective, I'm all in on safeholds/mythic play (I've liquidated a lot of my collection to be on track for an early safehold 1) but the mythics on top of that at the current pricing are gonna be a big ask. So I hope they end up doing more then just "you don't auto die in this otherwise identical dungeon if you don't have the same complete set of 5 everyone else does".

Picc wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Picc wrote:

Mongo wrote: I hate to say it but this prices my family out of ever playing Mythic…. Getting to safehold 1 and then getting the three mythic tokens to get around their mythic ability is just to costly for me to make a set for each of us in my family that plays.

I regret starting to make 5 sets of the safehold tokens down to safehold three due to the price being increased from what my expectations were, and the cost of mythic tokens added on top of this is just too much money.

I think Jeff listened to people who have no dog in this fight… people who will never make mythic themselves but encouraged pricing everyone else out of the market.

I think Jeff has forgotten who the intended audience is… people who have no intention of ever playing mythic being too vocal… but having these uber expensive tokens that will never sell for the cost of making them (no way to recoup one’s investment) is just too much to have tied up in a game, no matter how fun and enjoyable it may be.

I will still make one set for myself, but I just can’t justify making the other 4 I need for my entire family’s to play mythic… let alone getting them the three mythic tokens to circumvent the damage.

Hopefully mythic level is harder even if the party is equipping the 3 tokens else why play? Epic is fun as it is, and if Mythic ends up being just as hard as Epic if the party has the 3 tokens defeats the purpose of having Mythic other than bragging rights… but this ends up just being class warfare, “Pay to Play” mythic, only the rich can afford the tokens to play.

No, I am not “rage quitting”, but stating that my family can’t do this… and we were hoping to do so. I will have to play solo when doing mythic without my kids, and they will be very disappointed.

Legit question, how would you price a typical mythic. I can't imagine you're to far out of the target demographic, and to be honest while I don't know what goes on behind the curtain if your feeling priced out it's probably to expensive to actually get a viably consistent player base going.

He's not priced out. He's priced out of making 5 sets. I love Mongo but have a bit of difficulty sympathizing with someone getting down on the cost because they can't make 5 sets. I don't think Jeff is looking at setting the cost based on people making multiples of these. Someone may have 10 CoA but I wouldn't expect anyone to have 10 Coins of Wealth, etc.

Thing is though, if that group is even thinking hard about the cost let alone having trouble mustering mythics for everyone how may people do you think will actually be in the mythic population period. I have no info one way or the other but I assume we would need at least 30+ mythic players to see runs consistently fire and that's going to be a tall order already given there are only 38 people in the safehold registry at all.

I'm sure TDHQ has better numbers but personally I would rather see S rank parties die in the dungeon then get barred from trying by IRL logistics. And again that's not me saying the prices are wrong, just urging caution since we could mess this up rather easily.


For full disclosure on my personal perspective, I'm all in on safeholds/mythic play (I've liquidated a lot of my collection to be on track for an early safehold 1) but the mythics on top of that at the current pricing are gonna be a big ask. So I hope they end up doing more then just "you don't auto die in this otherwise identical dungeon if you don't have the same complete set of 5 everyone else does".

Very good points. I think Mythic Tokens should just be a new Token rarity and not a new difficulty level. Keep the dungeon difficulty as a separate issue altogether.

Rob F wrote:

Picc wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Picc wrote:

Mongo wrote: I hate to say it but this prices my family out of ever playing Mythic…. Getting to safehold 1 and then getting the three mythic tokens to get around their mythic ability is just to costly for me to make a set for each of us in my family that plays.

I regret starting to make 5 sets of the safehold tokens down to safehold three due to the price being increased from what my expectations were, and the cost of mythic tokens added on top of this is just too much money.

I think Jeff listened to people who have no dog in this fight… people who will never make mythic themselves but encouraged pricing everyone else out of the market.

I think Jeff has forgotten who the intended audience is… people who have no intention of ever playing mythic being too vocal… but having these uber expensive tokens that will never sell for the cost of making them (no way to recoup one’s investment) is just too much to have tied up in a game, no matter how fun and enjoyable it may be.

I will still make one set for myself, but I just can’t justify making the other 4 I need for my entire family’s to play mythic… let alone getting them the three mythic tokens to circumvent the damage.

Hopefully mythic level is harder even if the party is equipping the 3 tokens else why play? Epic is fun as it is, and if Mythic ends up being just as hard as Epic if the party has the 3 tokens defeats the purpose of having Mythic other than bragging rights… but this ends up just being class warfare, “Pay to Play” mythic, only the rich can afford the tokens to play.

No, I am not “rage quitting”, but stating that my family can’t do this… and we were hoping to do so. I will have to play solo when doing mythic without my kids, and they will be very disappointed.

Legit question, how would you price a typical mythic. I can't imagine you're to far out of the target demographic, and to be honest while I don't know what goes on behind the curtain if your feeling priced out it's probably to expensive to actually get a viably consistent player base going.

He's not priced out. He's priced out of making 5 sets. I love Mongo but have a bit of difficulty sympathizing with someone getting down on the cost because they can't make 5 sets. I don't think Jeff is looking at setting the cost based on people making multiples of these. Someone may have 10 CoA but I wouldn't expect anyone to have 10 Coins of Wealth, etc.

Thing is though, if that group is even thinking hard about the cost let alone having trouble mustering mythics for everyone how may people do you think will actually be in the mythic population period. I have no info one way or the other but I assume we would need at least 30+ mythic players to see runs consistently fire and that's going to be a tall order already given there are only 38 people in the safehold registry at all.

I'm sure TDHQ has better numbers but personally I would rather see S rank parties die in the dungeon then get barred from trying by IRL logistics. And again that's not me saying the prices are wrong, just urging caution since we could mess this up rather easily.


For full disclosure on my personal perspective, I'm all in on safeholds/mythic play (I've liquidated a lot of my collection to be on track for an early safehold 1) but the mythics on top of that at the current pricing are gonna be a big ask. So I hope they end up doing more then just "you don't auto die in this otherwise identical dungeon if you don't have the same complete set of 5 everyone else does".

Very good points. I think Mythic Tokens should just be a new Token rarity and not a new difficulty level. Keep the dungeon difficulty as a separate issue altogether.

Perhaps it also needs to be a new difficulty level though if they are so powerful that Epic Level wouldn't be enough of a challenge? I don't play Epic level - do people that are currently playing it find it to be not challenging enough now?

Mike Steele wrote: Perhaps it also needs to be a new difficulty level though if they are so powerful that Epic Level wouldn't be enough of a challenge? I don't play Epic level - do people that are currently playing it find it to be not challenging enough now?

I've done several Epic Double Downs where I've never felt that myself or the party was threatened when I've played Cleric, and we didn't do any significant preplanning. My druid build is substantially more powerful and there would be plenty of room to grow in party power.

Endgame wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Perhaps it also needs to be a new difficulty level though if they are so powerful that Epic Level wouldn't be enough of a challenge? I don't play Epic level - do people that are currently playing it find it to be not challenging enough now?

I've done several Epic Double Downs where I've never felt that myself or the party was threatened when I've played Cleric, and we didn't do any significant preplanning. My druid build is substantially more powerful and there would be plenty of room to grow in party power.

So that sounds like a Mythic Difficulty level might be needed. Out of curiosity, what is an Epic Double Down?

Mike Steele wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Perhaps it also needs to be a new difficulty level though if they are so powerful that Epic Level wouldn't be enough of a challenge? I don't play Epic level - do people that are currently playing it find it to be not challenging enough now?

I've done several Epic Double Downs where I've never felt that myself or the party was threatened when I've played Cleric, and we didn't do any significant preplanning. My druid build is substantially more powerful and there would be plenty of room to grow in party power.

So that sounds like a Mythic Difficulty level might be needed. Out of curiosity, what is an Epic Double Down?

Epic Difficulty where each player buys 2 tickets but only plays 1 and ghosts the other. That means that you run the dungeon with 5 characters. I've done one blind epic double down as well (no one in the group has run the dungeon before and has avoided spoilers). We also won that one without issue.

Endgame wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Perhaps it also needs to be a new difficulty level though if they are so powerful that Epic Level wouldn't be enough of a challenge? I don't play Epic level - do people that are currently playing it find it to be not challenging enough now?

I've done several Epic Double Downs where I've never felt that myself or the party was threatened when I've played Cleric, and we didn't do any significant preplanning. My druid build is substantially more powerful and there would be plenty of room to grow in party power.

So that sounds like a Mythic Difficulty level might be needed. Out of curiosity, what is an Epic Double Down?

Epic Difficulty where each player buys 2 tickets but only plays 1 and ghosts the other. That means that you run the dungeon with 5 characters. I've done one blind epic double down as well (no one in the group has run the dungeon before and has avoided spoilers). We also won that one without issue.

I'll bet that was fun, and that does sound like Mythic level is definitely needed! We ran this last GENCON with six players, and it reminded me of 2003 when I think six players was the normal amount.

Taking another look at the Mythic tokens, I'm mostly OK with them other than that they might need to be toned down a bit.

Mythic Charm of Fate: I like that it doesn't negate the Special Auto Attack, but instead allows a savings throw. I'd hope that the savings throw would just reduce the damage and not negate it.

Mythic Ioun Stone of Insight: I don't like that it completely negates the monster's Special Defense. I'd prefer it if it instead gave the player a percentage chance of success but still had a possibility of the Special Defense working. Maybe the percentage chance of success with the Mythic token would vary monster to monster.

Mythic Bead of Defiance: I like that it doesn't negate the Special Attack but instead allows a savings throw against it. Maybe in cases like getting polymorphed into rabbits it the savings throw would negate it, but in cases like an eldritch blast from the sky it would just reduce it. Some unpredictability would be fun.

Coin of Wealth: I like that it replaces the CoA, 3 Ioun Stones, and 3 Beads. It's a huge bonus that it gives the player back seven slots to equip. Perhaps it should be +26 Treasure Chips to be consistent with earlier designs, one extra Treasure Chip in addition to the extra seven slots seems right. If Jeff really wants it to be +30 which would give an extra five Treasure Chips, that also seems OK. I do think that it should be limited to not stacking with the CoA, HoP, AoTF, RoR, CoGF, 3 Ioun Stones, and 3 Beads so that any future Treasure Enhancing tokens would stack with it.

The recipe might also be adjusted to not have the Ioun Stones in it to be consistent with Jeff's proclamation from 8 years ago. An easy fix would be to do something like "any 10 UR TE tokens" instead of the Ioun Stones. For those that are concerned about the amount of Silver Nuggets in circulation, that would add some additional TE Nuggets back into circulation.

Ring of Glory: I'm totally OK with this, but perhaps it does require a ruling that HoP and AoTF (and any future neck TE tokens) can't stack with each other.

What would make me want to increase my Token spend for a Mythic Token that's going to take a lot of cash to make? Two things:

1) From a Token collector standpoint I would like for the Token to be somewhat unique. I don't necessarily need the power or Token name to be unique but if there was a way for me to work with TD to create a custom image for my Mythic Token it would be a huge draw for me personally to work towards one. If these are supposed to be the rarest of rares then having a +8 Battle Axe with my own custom image would be awesome! Maybe there are multiple +8 Battle Axe Mythic Tokens that get made, (those Dwarfs worked hard in the deep forges long ago) but they were all crafted slightly different so each one has a unique image. Because the power and name is the same this keeps all databases the same (character generator's, VTD, etc.) so no extra work for TD there. Not sure how TD produces one off Tokens so maybe an issue from a manufacturing standpoint, but if it's just a matter of waiting for the next time they place a Token order it would still be well worth the wait.

2) Something cool for just people who have crafted Mythic Tokens to get or do. This doesn't have to be a dungeon run. It could be a yearly invite to a discussion forum at Gen Con with the entire TD team, a special happy hour for Mythic Token holders at Ring Con, a Mythic Token holder only PvP event where once a year a player is crowned TD champion (only way to get entry into this type of event would be if you had a Mythic Token), Mythic physical swag of some sort, entry into a Mythic Token holder yearly lottery where the winner gets 200 Treasure Pulls, etc.

A Mythic dungeon run sounds cool, but that alone is not enough of a draw for me to want to spend money towards making a Mythic Token.

Naming quibble witth the ring of glory:

* of Glory items have always added extra rings.

Perhaps call it:
Ring of Renown
Ring of Honor
Ring of Power ( )

Or go with something more specific to TD that adds flavor, like:
Selenwa's Blessing

Mike Steele wrote: Ring of Glory: I'm totally OK with this, but perhaps it does require a ruling that HoP and AoTF (and any future neck TE tokens) can't stack with each other.

Why?

Put another way, if you're at the point of making a Ring of Glory and want to devote 2 slots to treasure enhancers, what's the harm in that player drawing an extra 2 Rare and 2 Uncommon from the box? (Most likely outcome based on treasure stats.)