TOPIC: 2025 Rare Tokens to Printer

Ho-Yi Fung wrote:

OrionW wrote: Those 7 trinkets would be a 7 year collecting endeavor… think about what a 7 year transmute would get you.

The argument that these should be compared to rare weapons are disingenuous.

Why do you need seven years? You can bring multiple copies of a Trinket into a dungeon and use each copy once.

OrionW wrote: As for your BS damage comparison you can collect range damage items and just go spell damage and mystic staff damage which will benefit from both.

You asked if I would rather have a PYP that takes up two hands that costs $50, or a stack of 7 slotless Trinkets that cost ~$11 (based on reputable token stores). That's not a very fair comparison.
In my suggested alternative, I come under the same budget: $50 and two hands slots. It's intended to be fair -- which part of it makes it a "BS damage comparison"?

If you are correct on what the final rules are for trinkets, then folks can just use a stack of Trinkets of Trollform and there was absolutely no point in nerfing the Trinket of the Dire Bear which makes the last minute changes even worse. We will have to see how the final rules shake out… right now the current rules are you can only use a trinket once, which is even worse.

Trinkets don’t exist in a vacuum and from a new players perspective I see no reason to build for melee if you have a choice. Nor do new players need to buy all of their tokens from a token store, they can collect tokens from play as well. I never said compare what you can get for just $50, what I said is why on earth would you build around Dire Bear when you could just get a Mystic Staff of the Ancients.

OrionW wrote:

Ho-Yi Fung wrote:

OrionW wrote: Those 7 trinkets would be a 7 year collecting endeavor… think about what a 7 year transmute would get you.

The argument that these should be compared to rare weapons are disingenuous.

Why do you need seven years? You can bring multiple copies of a Trinket into a dungeon and use each copy once.

OrionW wrote: As for your BS damage comparison you can collect range damage items and just go spell damage and mystic staff damage which will benefit from both.

You asked if I would rather have a PYP that takes up two hands that costs $50, or a stack of 7 slotless Trinkets that cost ~$11 (based on reputable token stores). That's not a very fair comparison.
In my suggested alternative, I come under the same budget: $50 and two hands slots. It's intended to be fair -- which part of it makes it a "BS damage comparison"?

If you are correct on what the final rules are for trinkets, then folks can just use a stack of Trinkets of Trollform and there was absolutely no point in nerfing the Trinket of the Dire Bear which makes the last minute changes even worse. We will have to see how the final rules shake out… right now the current rules are you can only use a trinket once, which is even worse.

Trinkets don’t exist in a vacuum and from a new players perspective I see no reason to build for melee if you have a choice. Nor do new players need to buy all of there from a token store, they can collect tokens from play as well. I never said compare what you can get for just $50, what I said is why on earth would you build around Dire Bear when you could just get a Mystic Staff of the Ancients.

Just because a token was out of balance in a previous year does not mean we need to print tokens of similar levels of unbalanced compared to all other tokens in its rarity every year going forward. We get data and feedback, learn something was considerably out of balance, and we try out best to fix them within the bounds of a collectable game.

Black Lotus was a broken card in MTG, it did not mean it would have been wise to print them every year going forward just because it existed before.

OrionW wrote: We will have to see how the final rules shake out… right now the current rules are you can only use a trinket once, which is even worse.

From the 2024 design notes , when asked about bringing multiple Trinkets into a dungeon, as one would with Thrown weapons:

Jeff Martin wrote: There's no slot so you can bring as many as you wish.

This implies one can bring (and use) multiple copies of a Trinket.

From this year's FAQ :

Druegar wrote: Trinket Use
There is no limit on the number of trinkets you can bring into the dungeon with you nor with the number of times you can use a trinket per room.

Since Trinkets are slotless, it doesn't otherwise make sense to state there is no limit on them except to mean no limit on each uniquely named Trinket. We don't, for example, need an entry to say we can bring multiple slotless Tomes with us!

Of course, it's possible I'm misinterpreting these comments, but given these along with the design goal that Trinkets are "intended to replace polymorph potions", it seems to me that you can bring and use a stack of Trinkets with you, as you would a stack of Polymorph Potions.

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OrionW wrote: Trinkets don’t exist in a vacuum and from a new players perspective I see no reason to build for melee if you have a choice. Nor do new players need to buy all of there from a token store, they can collect tokens from play as well. I never said compare what you can get for just $50, what I said is why on earth would you build around Dire Bear when you could just get a Mystic Staff of the Ancients.

Your exact wording was:

OrionW wrote: Would you rather have a Staff of the Ancients or a collection of these? (Which can be had as a PYP for $50)

My response, as I mentioned before, adjusted it to make the comparison more fair.
But, if you're getting a PYP for $50, then you're purchasing one through an auction (as a PYP would cost $250 from the official TD store). If you're participating in an auction, then you're likely also aware of token stores. And my comparison shows why a new player may want to build around Dire Bear instead of Mystic Staff of the Ancients: more damage, for a slightly lower, guaranteed price. (And once you manage to get your hands on an item that increases your level? A bonus +5 damage and crit range expander! MSotA doesn't give that.)

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Impy wrote:

OrionW wrote: If you are correct on what the final rules are for trinkets, then folks can just use a stack of Trinkets of Trollform and there was absolutely no point in nerfing the Trinket of the Dire Bear which makes the last minute changes even worse.

Just because a token was out of balance in a previous year does not mean we need to print tokens of similar levels of unbalanced compared to all other tokens in its rarity every year going forward. We get data and feedback, learn something was considerably out of balance, and we try out best to fix them within the bounds of a collectable game.

Black Lotus was a broken card in MTG, it did not mean it would have been wise to print them every year going forward just because it existed before.

This, pretty much. Just because one token was above the power curve, we shouldn't continue to design future tokens at the same power.

Or, to use another True Dungeon example: the 2021 completion Rare Belt of the Brave is almost double the power of the 2019 Rare Belt of Ogre Power , and generally considered stronger than the 2012 UR Girdle of Hill Giant Strength , 2014 UR Girdle of Might , and 2018 UR Girdle of Stone Giant Strength .
There were two ways forward: acknowledge it was a mistake and never print another belt of that power at that rarity, or double down on it by designing a UR belt that grants +2 to-hit, +5 damage in Melee , exceeding the power of the 2012 Relic Girdle of Frost Giant Strength and nearing the power of the 2012 Legendary Surtr’s Girdle of Fire Giant Strength . One of those paths would result in a loss for everyone involved: old tokens become completely obsoleted and worthless, and since player trust in a consistent power is now broken, new tokens won't be as desirable as they could just as easily be obsoleted in the same way.

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You keep wanting a UR-tier Polymorph enabler. What you don't seem to realise is: you already have one. It's just disguised as a Rare token.

Your argument in a year when the DK Helm was printed rings false. Why is it that a relic+ level helm was printed at the UR level for some classes, while at the same time this item was reduced?

In the case of the helm we had one outlier in Cranston’s and the rest of the helms were at a much lower level. Where was your Belt of the Brave example? The DK Helm is arguably better than Pern’s.

Here we had one comp in Trinket of Trollform and this item is clearly not at the same level of power. In fact it looks to be a step back from where polymorph potions were, in that they at least gave special abilities.

You can dress your arguments up in pretty words, but the inconsistency in how they are applied shows the true motivations, which seem to be that a lot of players that main Clerics want to see the Druid class nerfed.

As for the Staff of the Ancients example my point was that UR PYPs are going for less than $50 ant auction and many of them are going for $20 on the secondary market after the fact.

The idea that you would build around a token that is currently heavily restricted in TokenDB (1 trinket ever per game), doesn’t make sense when URs are available for cheap. Maybe the rules get updated for trinkets, but considering everything that was teased and shelved until after Ring Con, nothing is certain.

OrionW wrote: Your argument in a year when the DK Helm was printed rings false. Why is it that a relic+ level helm was printed at the UR level for some classes, while at the same time this item was reduced?

DK Helm is just a class restricted UR crown of might - +0.5 hit and damage for a small subset of classes. You can try to deflect, but you'd be better off picking a token of actual concern.

Endgame wrote:

OrionW wrote: Your argument in a year when the DK Helm was printed rings false. Why is it that a relic+ level helm was printed at the UR level for some classes, while at the same time this item was reduced?

DK Helm is just a class restricted UR crown of might - +0.5 hit and damage for a small subset of classes. You can try to deflect, but you'd be better off picking a token of actual concern.

First off that is false… Strength is better and can result in a full +1 hit and +1 to damage - the game has no half bonuses. This is also before you add the AC to the helm.

Here is a relic helm to compare it to:
tokendb.com/token/blessed-redoubt-helm/

Trinket of Trollform now contains this paragraph:
Even though each specific trinket token may only be used once per adventure, you may bring as many trinket tokens as you like into the adventure--same-named or differently named, it doesn't matter. E.g., if you have seven physical trinkets, you could use one trinket in each room. You may bring more than seven trinkets with you on your adventure, but you are limited to no more than one type of creature type in a single room. However, if you have more than one copy of a particular creature-type trinket, you could use them as many times as you like in that room. E.g., if you have four Trinket of the Dire Flurbnog, you could polymorph into and out of flurbnog form four times in a single room.

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I find in situations like these, I find it can be comforting to keep Hanlon's Razor in mind.

Druegar thank you for the clarification which is what I expected and Ho-Yi Fung makes my argument about collecting these over seven years 100% correct. The power level of this rare token is too low, and hopefully the next one can be made better.

Druegar wrote: Trinket of Trollform now contains this paragraph:
Even though each specific trinket token may only be used once per adventure, you may bring as many trinket tokens as you like into the adventure--same-named or differently named, it doesn't matter. E.g., if you have seven physical trinkets, you could use one trinket in each room. You may bring more than seven trinkets with you on your adventure, but you are limited to no more than one type of creature type in a single room. However, if you have more than one copy of a particular creature-type trinket, you could use them as many times as you like in that room. E.g., if you have four Trinket of the Dire Flurbnog, you could polymorph into and out of flurbnog form four times in a single room.

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I find in situations like these, I find it can be comforting to keep Hanlon's Razor in mind.

Druegar, does it need some sort of clarification that if you have a stack of 10 Trinkets of Trollform and use each of them in a single room, you don't heal 20 points at the end of the room?

Also, in TokenDB, it still says this "Limited Use: 1/Adventure, Max 1/person". Does the "Max 1/Person" need to be deleted?

OrionW wrote: Druegar thank you for the clarification which is what I expected and Ho-Yi Fung makes my argument about collecting these over seven years 100% correct. The power level of this rare token is too low, and hopefully the next one can be made better.

Surely what you meant is that the power level is too high and they should continue to drop over further years. I will bring 4 trinkets with me when I play Druid (slotless is just better than slotted Iktomi's) much like I bring 4 throwing hammers on every run.

The hammers are 5.33 average damage, they don't convert my focus into extra damage.

Endgame wrote:

OrionW wrote: Druegar thank you for the clarification which is what I expected and Ho-Yi Fung makes my argument about collecting these over seven years 100% correct. The power level of this rare token is too low, and hopefully the next one can be made better.

Surely what you meant is that the power level is too high and they should continue to drop over further years. I will bring 4 trinkets with me when I play Druid (slotless is just better than slotted Iktomi's) much like I bring 4 throwing hammers on every run.

The hammers are 5.33 average damage, they don't convert my focus into extra damage.

Surely that is not what I meant. If you have to collect something over many years they should be special.

Edit: and let’s be clear if you bring these over Iktomi’s it is because Iktomi’s needs to be rebalanced… there isn’t another class legendary you would swap out for a slotless item.