TOPIC: 2025 Transmuted Tokens Heading to the Far East

I know this would break with tradition, but I'd love to see the Huginn and Muninn year markers on Odin's Eye Patch.

Ho-Yi Fung wrote:

OrionW wrote: I am totally okay if we see more environmental damage that makes healing take a more front and center role - it will also gives clerics with DKS a chance to shine as they cast 1st and 2nd level heals as free actions.

If you design environmental damage to allow the DSN to shine, how will a party without a DSN fare?
What about parties that have neither a Cleric nor a Druid?
What about parties that have a DSN, but no LoDS or KoDH to heal more than one person per Spell?

The problem with designing an environment where the healing of a DSN shines is, it forces both class lock (you must have a Cleric) and token lock (that Cleric must have a DSN). I do not believe it is healthy for this game to make a dungeon that requires a particular class-specific Legendary to be equipped in order to survive.

I agree with a lot of what you say but disagree with the last part on party composition pretty strongly.

Players - especially at higher difficulties where legendary tokens may be important to survival, should be considering their total party composition.

If a party elects to go into the dungeon at nightmare or epic without either of the top two healers, that party should not complain that a lack of healing is causing them problems in their run.

Having High damage dungeons at higher difficulties where DSN would shine does not require a cleric with the Druegar’s Sacred Necklace legendary for at least three reasons:

1. ring of quick blessing exists, which allows for pretty effective healing during combat at UR.

2. It’s OK for clerics and Druids to spend their combat rounds healing sometimes, that’s just teamwork.

3. It’s OK for characters to die sometimes. The game is chock a block full of death avoiding and death negating effects. Only a TPK is really undesirable in my view, and then only if it seems the party had no agency.

Ho-Yi Fung wrote: IS Sunstone Trilliant:
10 DR is really high; that's a swing of 100 HP between a full sized party that has this vs a full sized party that does not.
Progression (1 -> 2 -> 6 elements resisted) is too high, compared to other Legendary lines. Consider 1 -> 2 -> 4 elements resisted instead.

I can understand an initial reaction that giving DR to 6 elements seems high. But taking a step back to think about it, I disagree and think the Legendary is fine with the 6 elements of DR.

I say this for a few reasons:
1. SRoEC is also part of 3 very good set bonuses.
2. There is a cap of 20 DR for each element of damage dealt.
3. This is just keeping up with power creep in a way. And considering how costly the recipes have been getting in recent years, I'm more than okay with getting more bang for my buck whenever possible.
4. Not everyone has the SRoEC, and likely would not be able to afford it or put forth the money it would take to acquire it anyway.


I'll also point out that Jeff and the other dungeon creators will always find ways for this token to be less effective for DR from time to time. They found a way to make the Cloak of Shadowskin less effective by dropping in tons of AoE attacks from time to time so the ability to absorb an attack could not be used. They can simply find loopholes to prevent DR from kicking in by using non-elemental damage, Eldritch, or toss in a bunch of Retribution damage.

Just my thoughts on the Tilliant tokens proposed so far.

DrStupid (Greg) wrote: I'll also point out that Jeff and the other dungeon creators will always find ways for this token to be less effective for DR from time to time. They found a way to make the Cloak of Shadowskin less effective by dropping in tons of AoE attacks from time to time so the ability to absorb an attack could not be used. They can simply find loopholes to prevent DR from kicking in by using non-elemental damage, Eldritch, or toss in a bunch of Retribution damage.

This sort of workaround is part of the concern, actually. If you haven't read it yet, see this post by David Zych on a previous iteration of this thread for the problems some of us have with this token. The scenarios presented aren't merely hypothetical -- we've seen all those cases happen in dungeons while the SRoEC has existed.

Ho-Yi Fung wrote:

DrStupid (Greg) wrote: I'll also point out that Jeff and the other dungeon creators will always find ways for this token to be less effective for DR from time to time. They found a way to make the Cloak of Shadowskin less effective by dropping in tons of AoE attacks from time to time so the ability to absorb an attack could not be used. They can simply find loopholes to prevent DR from kicking in by using non-elemental damage, Eldritch, or toss in a bunch of Retribution damage.

This sort of workaround is part of the concern, actually. If you haven't read it yet, see this post by David Zych on a previous iteration of this thread for the problems some of us have with this token. The scenarios presented aren't merely hypothetical -- we've seen all those cases happen in dungeons while the SRoEC has existed.

Okay, so if TD decides to adjust the dungeon (from time to time) to account for people running this new Legendary token for DR, then why change it? They'll simply change the dungeon according to the value of the token, so what does it matter if it is for -5 or -10 DR?
IF they alter the dungeons as this line of thought suggests, and it goes too far, they can always make adjustments throughout the weekend.

We should not use SRoEC as part of an argument. There are a limited number of SRoEC out in the open. If someone so happens to have it and makes this new Legendary, great for them. They can then choose how easy they want to make the dungeon for themselves. So let them have that.

For the rest of us, I would think we would all welcome having a token that resembles the SRoEC for our own. And even then, not everyone is going to have the resources to make or buy it.
I would love to have the big big brother of my IS Topaz Trilliant, but likely I'll get as far as the Relic.

And again, considering the increased cost of transmute recipes over the years, this Legendary would at least feel worth the resources it will take to make it.

One last thought. If you think your reducing incoming damage by 10 from 1 of the 6 different damage types is too much...don't use it. Or modify DR to the suggested -5 instead. You are in control of your HP. You can adjust your experience to match the dungeon difficulty while still allowing others to enjoy the full benefit of the suggested token effect. This isn't a big ask. I do it all the time when I run my full build with newer players at a lower level. Instead of carrying a Nightmare build and a Rare-only build, I adjust my Nightmare build down to accommodate a lesser difficulty when needed. It's really easy and sometimes enjoyable.

I agree with Greg here. Let everyone else put their stats in, ask to see the party card, and if your stats are out of kine high, dumb them down.

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote: I agree with Greg here. Let everyone else put their stats in, ask to see the party card, and if your stats are out of kine high, dumb them down.

That sounds great...until such person dies to a fireball that was tweaked up to 60 so that the players with 20 fire DR will still take damage when they save.

Also, why should I pay over $1000 to NOT use the tokens abilities?

And lastly, my experience with the supreme ring of elemental command; I used to own 2 of them and sold them years ago because I was never happy to have it. The 'best' that happens is you just never take damage. Which, I guess is good, but boring. Every other scenario is frustrating: because maybe the damage is jacked up too high for the rest of your party to handle, OR all the damage avoids your DR somehow ('eldritch fire' still annoys many of us old-timers).
I tried suggesting an errata to swap the DR and retribution values (seriously, why is retribution so low?), but never got any traction.
At this point, 10 DR already exists on a token, so it doesn't really matter if it is done again. Let's let more people share in the misery.

Since you control your own HP, that also may not be a thing.

That said, I would love more RD on SRoEC.

Finally, Atchison point it appears TPTB agreed with you and shipped it as it was, so you got it.

P.S. I concur on "eldritch fire" "sacred fire" and all other obnoxious workarounds.