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TOPIC: 2025 Ultra Rare Tokens Heading to the Far East

2025 Ultra Rare Tokens Heading to the Far East 2 months 1 week ago #25

OrionW wrote: Amulet of Folkvangr
I believe 1 point of strength is going to be worth less than 1 point of dex (which gives you saves/ac along with +hit/+dmg) after the proposed rules go into effect, so this is basically stu's but balanced for the new proposed rules. It is also why it is probably okay that the Death Knight Helm is pushing what would be an appropriate amount of strength and AC on a head slot (pushing into what was relic territory).

It doesn't hurt to reprint Stu's now. If rule changes devalue strength, then we can talk about a different neck item in 2026 or 2027, like a +6 str amulet.
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2025 Ultra Rare Tokens Heading to the Far East 2 months 1 week ago #26

Endgame wrote:

OrionW wrote: Amulet of Folkvangr
I believe 1 point of strength is going to be worth less than 1 point of dex (which gives you saves/ac along with +hit/+dmg) after the proposed rules go into effect, so this is basically stu's but balanced for the new proposed rules. It is also why it is probably okay that the Death Knight Helm is pushing what would be an appropriate amount of strength and AC on a head slot (pushing into what was relic territory).

It doesn't hurt to reprint Stu's now. If rule changes devalue strength, then we can talk about a different neck item in 2026 or 2027, like a +6 str amulet.


Medallion of Valhalla has a total of +7 stats and it is from 2018. +6 to stats at the UR neck level is just not where the game is at for 2025. Stu's is even older.
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2025 Ultra Rare Tokens Heading to the Far East 2 months 1 week ago #27

OrionW wrote:

Endgame wrote:

OrionW wrote: Amulet of Folkvangr
I believe 1 point of strength is going to be worth less than 1 point of dex (which gives you saves/ac along with +hit/+dmg) after the proposed rules go into effect, so this is basically stu's but balanced for the new proposed rules. It is also why it is probably okay that the Death Knight Helm is pushing what would be an appropriate amount of strength and AC on a head slot (pushing into what was relic territory).

It doesn't hurt to reprint Stu's now. If rule changes devalue strength, then we can talk about a different neck item in 2026 or 2027, like a +6 str amulet.


Medallion of Valhalla has a total of +7 stats and it is from 2018. +6 to stats at the UR neck level is just not where the game is at for 2025. Stu's is even older.

Valhalla was printed at +7 because Jeff said Con wasn’t as valuable as Str or Dex.
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2025 Ultra Rare Tokens Heading to the Far East 2 months 1 week ago #28

In 2016 Con was worth as much as Str, Dex when the Amulet of the Champion was printed, so not so sure about that, but either way these are very old tokens that we are comparing here. +7 which is what is on Medallion of Valhalla and is the most recent token which seems like a better base to build on.

The other comp would be Amulet of Noble Might (from 2021) which at relic level has +13 stats and an ability. If were to use this then maybe 10+ would be appropriate at the UR level, but that feels like a conversation for after any rules, balancing, and class cards come out. It also shows just how out of place some of the class items ended up compared to all of the other tokens.
Last edit: by OrionW.
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2025 Ultra Rare Tokens Heading to the Far East 2 months 1 week ago #29

OrionW wrote: In 2016 Con was worth as much as Str, Dex when the Amulet of the Champion was printed, so not so sure about that, but either way these are very old tokens that we are comparing here. +7 which is what is on Medallion of Valhalla and is the most recent token which seems like a better base to build on.

Jeff's post on the subject that not all stats are equal, so no, it appears that con was not worth as much as dex or str in 2018 when valhalla was printed..
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=603&id=246028&start=24#295885

If sticking with the Norse theme was desired, a reprint of Medallion of Valhalla would also work instead of a Stu-Pendous Pendent reprint.
Last edit: by Endgame.
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2025 Ultra Rare Tokens Heading to the Far East 2 months 1 week ago #30

OrionW wrote: In 2016 Con was worth as much as Str, Dex when the Amulet of the Champion was printed, so not so sure about that, but either way these are very old tokens that we are comparing here. +7 which is what is on Medallion of Valhalla and is the most recent token which seems like a better base to build on.

The other comp would be Amulet of Noble Might (from 2021) which at relic level has +13 stats and an ability. If were to use this then maybe 10+ would be appropriate at the UR level, but that feels like a conversation for after any rules, balancing, and class cards come out. It also shows just how out of place some of the class items ended up compared to all of the other tokens.


Not all stats are the same value in general, and especially in the context of a particular build.

If all stats were the same value, various +X to one stat, -X to another stat tokens would be bad tokens, because they would use up a slot for no net benefit.

However tokens like this are not bad, in fact the are often quite good. That's because both in general, and in particular builds, some stats are much more valuable than others.

Stu-pendous Pendant is still the best UR stat booster in its slot for STR/melee builds, which are still the majority of builds. It's also the best UR stat booster in its slot of physical ranged builds with thrown or mighty weapons.

Stu-pendous pendant has not been surpassed by other UR stat based neck items that offer a +7 of total less desirable stats.

Historically STR has been the most desirable stat by a wide margin, and it still is largely.

Just look at the sheer number of STR boosting tokens and the sheer number of slots where you can pick up STR versus DEX or CON.

Or look at how TD keeps bolting STR or melee bonuses into tokens that don’t need it (like Death Knight Shield, Helm), and how strenuously proponents of those tokens argue to retain those effects.

Would Death Knight Helm be generally as desirable with +3 DEX, or +3 CON? Or even +4 CON? No.

DEX has been a distant second in desirability to STR. (Although it has been getting better as Ranged damage boosters have proliferated in the last few years.)

CON has been a distant third in desirability. See for instance Fiendish Charm (+2 STR, -2 CON) which used to get played in even mid to top tier builds. CON is primarily of use to casters who don't really have much purpose for either STR or DEX. Many builds would rather have +1 STR than +4 CON.

This +4 STR & +3 DEX Amulet of the Folkvangr is unnecessary power creep plain and simple, Stu-pendous Pendant is still preferred over Medallion of Valhalla, Medallion of the Sweetwoods, or Amulet of the Champion in the majority of builds.

It's also bad design, in my opinion, as it's going to trash the value of Stu-Pendous Pendant in a way that is completely unnecessary. It's possible to print a token that's more desirable than Stu-Pendous Pendant for many builds without making Stu-Pendous Pendant strictly worse in every build.

A simple +4 STR and nothing else, for example. Or +4 STR & +1 DEX. Or +5 STR & -2 DEX.

Non-STR/melee builds probably want charm necklace rather than any of the above tokens. Charms have gotten so out of hand STR/melee builds might do better with Charm necklace anyway.

Maybe charm necklace should just get reprinted instead.
Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.
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2025 Ultra Rare Tokens Heading to the Far East 2 months 1 week ago #31

OrionW wrote: Amulet of Folkvangr
I believe 1 point of strength is going to be worth less than 1 point of dex (which gives you saves/ac along with +hit/+dmg) after the proposed rules go into effect, so this is basically stu's but balanced for the new proposed rules. It is also why it is probably okay that the Death Knight Helm is pushing what would be an appropriate amount of strength and AC on a head slot (pushing into what was relic territory).


It isn't Stu's but balanced, it is strictly better than Stu's.
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2025 Ultra Rare Tokens Heading to the Far East 2 months 1 week ago #32

Mike Steele wrote:

OrionW wrote: Amulet of Folkvangr
I believe 1 point of strength is going to be worth less than 1 point of dex (which gives you saves/ac along with +hit/+dmg) after the proposed rules go into effect, so this is basically stu's but balanced for the new proposed rules. It is also why it is probably okay that the Death Knight Helm is pushing what would be an appropriate amount of strength and AC on a head slot (pushing into what was relic territory).


It isn't Stu's but balanced, it is strictly better than Stu's.


To be more clear if Dex starts giving +1 damage for 2 points of dex, then current items overvalue strength, as It doesn't have a bonus to AC or reflex saves. If the rules for stats remain the same then the item should probably be +3 str / +4 dex, and the DK helm should lose the AC.
Last edit: by OrionW.
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2025 Ultra Rare Tokens Heading to the Far East 2 months 1 week ago #33

OrionW wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

OrionW wrote: Amulet of Folkvangr
I believe 1 point of strength is going to be worth less than 1 point of dex (which gives you saves/ac along with +hit/+dmg) after the proposed rules go into effect, so this is basically stu's but balanced for the new proposed rules. It is also why it is probably okay that the Death Knight Helm is pushing what would be an appropriate amount of strength and AC on a head slot (pushing into what was relic territory).


It isn't Stu's but balanced, it is strictly better than Stu's.


To be more clear if Dex starts giving +1 damage for 2 points of dex, then current items overvalue strength, as It doesn't have a bonus to AC or reflex saves. If the rules for stats remain the same then the item should probably be +3 str / +4 dex, and the DK helm should lose the AC.


TD has quite a long history of proposing and then not implementing, or pivoting substantially, on rules changes for one reason or another.

We should not be designing tokens with forever consequences because TD proposed a potential rules change for how DEX works.

The time for designing tokens that account for new DEX rules, is when the new DEX rules exist.

One need look only as far as the massive changes between versions of Safehold II and I proposals in the last few weeks, or the announcement and then repeal of the rule that only one Trinket per dungeon could be used to get a sense of how unwise it is to take TD's initial rules proposals as written in stone.

Personally, I find it highly unlikely that DEX will end up granting a damage bonus in 2025. If it does, it may do so for only some classes, or be subject to substantial limitations not currently described.
Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.
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2025 Ultra Rare Tokens Heading to the Far East 2 months 1 week ago #34

If you are skeptical of the stat changes than Amulet of Folkvangr as +3 str / +4 dex it would be inline with Medallion of Valhalla.

But if str remains the go to stat than I do really believe that the Death Knight Helm needs to be a lot closer to Crown of Might. The helm compares too favorably to Blessed Redoubt Helm, which is limited to basically the same classes.

Edit: Also can we get barbarians back on the Death Kngith Helm? It has horns on it, looks barbarian like, and they were on the Blessed Redoubt Helm.
Last edit: by OrionW.
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2025 Ultra Rare Tokens Heading to the Far East 2 months 1 week ago #35

OrionW wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

OrionW wrote: Amulet of Folkvangr
I believe 1 point of strength is going to be worth less than 1 point of dex (which gives you saves/ac along with +hit/+dmg) after the proposed rules go into effect, so this is basically stu's but balanced for the new proposed rules. It is also why it is probably okay that the Death Knight Helm is pushing what would be an appropriate amount of strength and AC on a head slot (pushing into what was relic territory).


It isn't Stu's but balanced, it is strictly better than Stu's.


To be more clear if Dex starts giving +1 damage for 2 points of dex, then current items overvalue strength, as It doesn't have a bonus to AC or reflex saves. If the rules for stats remain the same then the item should probably be +3 str / +4 dex, and the DK helm should lose the AC.


If the new token is +4 ST, it should go to +2 Dex to keep from obsoleting Stu's. A choice is better than strictly better.
Last edit: by Mike Steele.
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2025 Ultra Rare Tokens Heading to the Far East 2 months 1 week ago #36

OrionW wrote: If you are skeptical of the stat changes than Amulet of Folkvangr as +3 str / +4 dex it would be inline with Medallion of Valhalla.


DEX is still generally better than CON, but yes, it would be inline, assuming inline means "within some narrow envelope of desirability."

Stu-pendous pendant itself would also be inline; as the difference between +3 and +4 on what is a secondary stat for the token isn't earth shattering either way.

And reprinting Stu-pendous pendant itself does not have the problem of obsoleting a UR token, which I think is to be avoided if at all possible.

Take this as a thought experiment: What if TD just started reprinting all manner of existing URs, but with +1 STR on them.

Beefcake's Charm of Brooching: +1 STR and you may equip up to 2 back slot items

Deadlier Knight Gauntlets: +5 STR (part of the death knight set)

Charm of Quick and Mighty Strike: +1 STR and you get a special quick strike combat round if 15+ is rolled on initiative

Would it be a good idea for TD to be doing this?

I think it is a bad idea, because it undercuts the collectible aspect of the game: by causing URs someone bought for ~$100 dollars on the secondary market to lose 90% of their value overnight, presumably so that TD can generate demand to sell more of the new-and-improved-strictly-better PyPs.

I think there is only so much of this that can be done before people stop being willing to pay ~$100 for URs on the secondary market.

I think this trend has already begun.

I think that trend ends with reduced token sales for TD.

I could be wrong about all that.
Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.
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